I guess what I really wanted to end that with was that regardless of any feelings or thoughts about this situation, I wouldn’t use it to project my next decision on something else. My next decision on something that seems similar, externally, could very well be or appear to be inconsistent with my reaction here. Moving forward I want to outline a policy that can try to give a clear outline of expectations. But in trying to outline that in a way that best fits all possible situations of the type, that may not take into account variables like:
I know this guy
I know his customers know me
I know who he marketed to
All thoughts and feelings that I’ve heard here are valid, I just want to be clear that precedent is not going to be defined by this situation. Though it certainly will help to inform what will become precedent.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Moved one of my clients from my own SmallWeb (NB) account, to their own onepoundemail - a customer gain for @MichaelCee. [Before someone says/asks: it was a favour to my client who has even less funds than me! It is also very low email throughput.]
Used the inbuilt IMAPsync and that was a painless exercise. Great!
(Wish I'd sussed that before the missus cancelled her account. :'( )
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
I understand the good gesture/ intentions of helping those affected as a motivator for considering what @jarland proposed.
But technically, every customer who signed up with a reseller had an option of signing up directly with Mxroute. It was the customer's decision to opt for reseller X (in this case, NB) instead. Why should the Mxroute be concerned whether NB customers have been left in the lurch or not? It
Legally nothing ties the two together, it was the customer's responsibility to make backups in any case. Customer always have an option of signing up with Mxroute.
In that context,
What triggered all the discussions and positions over the past few pages? What did I miss ?
@vyas said:
Why should the Mxroute be concerned whether NB customers have been left in the lurch or not? It
People routinely ask if my resellers are safe to do business with. This event will cause a reduction in overall trust of MXroute resellers, possibly leading to reduced growth for my most profitable service. It doesn’t hurt that being the good guy and propping up the first major failure of a reseller for my own benefit (not for the profit from these users, but for the potential profits for all resellers as a whole) happen to line up.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
@vyas said:
Why should the Mxroute be concerned whether NB customers have been left in the lurch or not? It
People routinely ask if my resellers are safe to do business with. This event will cause a reduction in overall trust of MXroute resellers, possibly leading to reduced growth for my most profitable service. It doesn’t hurt that being the good guy and propping up the first major failure of a reseller for my own benefit (not for the profit from these users, but for the potential profits for all resellers as a whole) happen to line up.
i would think in an ideal situation, the (more reputable) reseller(s) make the refugee offers while supported by mxroute. this further adds value to the business model.
that being said mxroute is probably the most mature provider in this case.
never needed to login to mxroute since emails always work.
@vyas said:
Why should the Mxroute be concerned whether NB customers have been left in the lurch or not? It
People routinely ask if my resellers are safe to do business with. This event will cause a reduction in overall trust of MXroute resellers, possibly leading to reduced growth for my most profitable service. It doesn’t hurt that being the good guy and propping up the first major failure of a reseller for my own benefit (not for the profit from these users, but for the potential profits for all resellers as a whole) happen to line up.
Thanks - this is much more understandable now.
One option - an extension of what @Cybertech mentioned- could be to set up a “path to migration “ page for affected folks:
i.e customers in good standing can choose from a set of resellers
where account migration can be facilitated/possible. That way customers reach out first, the migration happens with their consent, issue of poaching should not arise. Wrt pool of resellers, I am thinking something like Bandwidth alliance that Cloudflare has. But specific to email.
Added later:
A better example could be what the original Centos developers did after Redhat dropped the ball on Centos. Community was reassured of continuity, third party vendors joined in, path to migration was quickly drawn up…. Relatively speaking
On second thoughts,
Maybe I jumped into the discussion too late to add any value. So I will stop here.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
@jarland said:
I guess what I really wanted to end that with was that regardless of any feelings or thoughts about this situation, I wouldn’t use it to project my next decision on something else. My next decision on something that seems similar, externally, could very well be or appear to be inconsistent with my reaction here. Moving forward I want to outline a policy that can try to give a clear outline of expectations. But in trying to outline that in a way that best fits all possible situations of the type, that may not take into account variables like:
I know this guy
I know his customers know me
I know who he marketed to
All thoughts and feelings that I’ve heard here are valid, I just want to be clear that precedent is not going to be defined by this situation. Though it certainly will help to inform what will become precedent.
Well, RIP their website. I think it's time for mass migration. So @jarland can we get our accounts migrated directly to MXroute?
LOL. The only question is which (non-NB) machines are referred to by those notices!
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
LOL. The only question is which (non-NB) machines are referred to by those notices!
The website itself maybe?
I mean, it's simply wrong/dishonest to have such a fake/misleading status page, and I wonder since when that page has been like this
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
LOL. The only question is which (non-NB) machines are referred to by those notices!
The website itself maybe?
I mean, it's simply wrong/dishonest to have such a fake/misleading status page, and I wonder since when that page has been like this
I rarely recommend having a status page that actually monitors and reports outages. Then you have to make sure you cover all of the bases to make sure it doesn’t report false positives, which can be more tricky under some scenarios than others (rate limits, third party reverse proxies, etc). I think it’s just that it’s manual update and abandoned like everything else.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
I'm confused: just received an email today entitled..
Your new SmallWeb service
With all the existing login details.
[Edit] Client Area of NB is still operational.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
@MichaelCee I have a specific issue with your ToS:
.. the following are forbidden from our services:
..
Server notification emails to @gmail.com email addresses (Such as CSF/LFD).
My primary purposes for using mxroute are to receive emails from my few clients AND to get system notifications from my servers. I average about 30 emails/day from my servers.
This is holding me back from your generous refugee offer. :-/
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
.. the following are forbidden from our services:
..
Server notification emails to @gmail.com email addresses (Such as CSF/LFD).
My primary purposes for using mxroute are to receive emails from my few clients AND to get system notifications from my servers. I average about 30 emails/day from my servers.
This is holding me back from your generous refugee offer. :-/
IIRC correctly this may be taken from MXroute policy:
Sending an excess of junk emails that were not even intended for human consumption, to third party email services. Example: You don't need an email in your Gmail inbox every time someone fails SSH login on your server, you can just find a list of Chinanet IPs here to do the same job all at once.
I don't know why I've written it so literally
EDIT: I've pushed an update incorporating the original wording more.
EDIT: If you have a domain at SmallWeb you need to take action ASAP. Now that the NexusBytes WHMCS is inaccessible, you can't download invoices and proof which is required for NameSilo to take action (unless you've already got this data).
Do the same with SmallWeb, download your domain invoices and contact NameSilo.
.. the following are forbidden from our services:
..
Server notification emails to @gmail.com email addresses (Such as CSF/LFD).
My primary purposes for using mxroute are to receive emails from my few clients AND to get system notifications from my servers. I average about 30 emails/day from my servers.
This is holding me back from your generous refugee offer. :-/
You’re the rarity. Most people just have CSF/LFD tuned to default so it sends 1000 root login failures a day to Gmail from root@localhost. Obviously with no intent to read them, just a bunch of default configs treating the SMTP queue as a trash can.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
@jarland How's that backup coming along? Just asking 'cos you're here. @MichaelCee I'm scrolling back through this thread to re-read the refugee offer due to receiving an invoice for it.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
@AlwaysSkint said: @jarland How's that backup coming along? Just asking 'cos you're here.
He is not doing any backup, because it is illegal to touch the data of another provider without their consent. He only keeps it active because NexusBytes owner was a friend.
@MichaelCee I'm scrolling back through this thread to re-read the refugee offer due to receiving an invoice for it.
He had an offer for refugee, matching the price by creating the same NexusBytes plan within OnePoundEmail. I do not know if this offer is still active though. If it is, you better hurry and grab it while it's still hot and abusers don't see it.
Ta, @root I forgot it was in another thread.
(Jar knows what I'm talking about.)
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
@root said: He had an offer for refugee, matching the price by creating the same NexusBytes plan within OnePoundEmail. I do not know if this offer is still active though. If it is, you better hurry and grab it while it's still hot and abusers don't see it.
Aye, it's basically 6 months free service for refugees and a complete spec/price match, but a payment for your billing period is required first.
I believe he might be using the word “illegal” as shorthand for what could possibly be sued as a tort. I suppose “illegal” isn’t a completely unfair word to describe a tort, but it would require agreement by a judge to truly be deserving of the word in anything beyond mere opinion.
Even if that were to reach a judge, I do believe my plans around this would cause it to be easily dismissed. But if we’re talking about a friend who went MIA and is no longer residing in the states, I think it’s probably a silly discussion to spend much time on.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
I believe he might be using the word “illegal” as shorthand for what could possibly be sued as a tort. I suppose “illegal” isn’t a completely unfair word to describe a tort, but it would require agreement by a judge to truly be deserving of the word in anything beyond mere opinion.
Even if that were to reach a judge, I do believe my plans around this would cause it to be easily dismissed. But if we’re talking about a friend who went MIA and is no longer residing in the states, I think it’s probably a silly discussion to spend much time on.
I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Again, I do not know the contract or trust between MXRoute and Nexusbytes, and therefore I do not know where anyone's rights begin and where they end, however I am willing to try and test this if need be.
There has to be some consumer protection agencies and privacy laws in United States. I know for sure that clients of NexusBytes have contract with NexusBytes directly, not with MXRoute. Nexusbytes in return has contract with MXRoute. All in all, I would love to see MXRoute buy NexusBytes and fix all this mess in a respectful and legal way, without searching for legal interpretations to move clients and their data.
I believe he might be using the word “illegal” as shorthand for what could possibly be sued as a tort. I suppose “illegal” isn’t a completely unfair word to describe a tort, but it would require agreement by a judge to truly be deserving of the word in anything beyond mere opinion.
Even if that were to reach a judge, I do believe my plans around this would cause it to be easily dismissed. But if we’re talking about a friend who went MIA and is no longer residing in the states, I think it’s probably a silly discussion to spend much time on.
I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Again, I do not know the contract or trust between MXRoute and Nexusbytes, and therefore I do not know where anyone's rights begin and where they end, however I am willing to try and test this if need be.
There has to be some consumer protection agencies and privacy laws in United States. I know for sure that clients of NexusBytes have contract with NexusBytes directly, not with MXRoute. Nexusbytes in return has contract with MXRoute. All in all, I would love to see MXRoute buy NexusBytes and fix all this mess in a respectful and legal way, without searching for legal interpretations to move clients and their data.
I'd assume @jarland would be held accountable by a US federal court (or Texas state law) and there is no GDPR consideration here so that is completely null. At best, some FTC or state-specific laws around emails/data but good luck making heads or tails of that.
He would be legally allowed to purchase the clients (and not have to purchase all of NB), but that would require NB to be active and responding. I am a little confused as to why you are so dead-set on MXRoute purchasing NB outright as the only "respectful and legal" way. All legalities are interpretations of law, I don't get the impression he is looking for some corny loophole here. If the reseller is completely MIA/incapacitated there are absolutely respectful and legal methods that can be pursued when an outright purchase is not possible. I thought @yoursunny had a pretty decent roadmap wherein you don't assume/move/touch any data without active client action and permission after the reseller agreement has been voided.
For an additional perspective from one of your (very happy) customers: I'd be ecstatic that you are going out of your way to make sure I don't have business interruptions with regards to my email, and making it known and clear you are backing up your product and actively supporting it by whatever means are available and safe to you. In fact, this served as a reminder for me to go get another MXRoute account purchased for our parent org domains to get it off gsuite and stop procrastinating.
I believe he might be using the word “illegal” as shorthand for what could possibly be sued as a tort. I suppose “illegal” isn’t a completely unfair word to describe a tort, but it would require agreement by a judge to truly be deserving of the word in anything beyond mere opinion.
Even if that were to reach a judge, I do believe my plans around this would cause it to be easily dismissed. But if we’re talking about a friend who went MIA and is no longer residing in the states, I think it’s probably a silly discussion to spend much time on.
I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Again, I do not know the contract or trust between MXRoute and Nexusbytes, and therefore I do not know where anyone's rights begin and where they end, however I am willing to try and test this if need be.
There has to be some consumer protection agencies and privacy laws in United States. I know for sure that clients of NexusBytes have contract with NexusBytes directly, not with MXRoute. Nexusbytes in return has contract with MXRoute. All in all, I would love to see MXRoute buy NexusBytes and fix all this mess in a respectful and legal way, without searching for legal interpretations to move clients and their data.
I'd assume @jarland would be held accountable by a US federal court (or Texas state law) and there is no GDPR consideration here so that is completely null. At best, some FTC or state-specific laws around emails/data but good luck making heads or tails of that.
He would be legally allowed to purchase the clients (and not have to purchase all of NB), but that would require NB to be active and responding. I am a little confused as to why you are so dead-set on MXRoute purchasing NB outright as the only "respectful and legal" way. All legalities are interpretations of law, I don't get the impression he is looking for some corny loophole here. If the reseller is completely MIA/incapacitated there are absolutely respectful and legal methods that can be pursued when an outright purchase is not possible. I thought @yoursunny had a pretty decent roadmap wherein you don't assume/move/touch any data without active client action and permission after the reseller agreement has been voided.
For an additional perspective from one of your (very happy) customers: I'd be ecstatic that you are going out of your way to make sure I don't have business interruptions with regards to my email, and making it known and clear you are backing up your product and actively supporting it by whatever means are available and safe to you. In fact, this served as a reminder for me to go get another MXRoute account purchased for our parent org domains to get it off gsuite and stop procrastinating.
The legal purchase of clients is just a traditional solution which I saw being done multiple times, as one company buys another.
Personally I am against touching data of customers without at least customers consent. One needs to have consent of customers in order to pull them into a different contract with a different legal entity. This is how honest business works. One also needs to have consent of previous provider to take away their clients (but I understand this is more of a friendship between owners, so legal lines here are quite blurry as to what is allowed and what is not).
I definitely respect that position and agree to disagree on some points. But to be clear, there will be the matter of consent. Each user will be contacted and offered an opportunity to provide consent, those not providing it will be given a termination date. I’m working on some automation for handling the consent, and I think it’ll all be held to a fairly high standard. I can’t promise it’ll be quite up to EU legal standards but I will satisfy a higher standard than is required by me legally in my jurisdiction.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
@root said: I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Yeah, I thought that might be where you were going. Completely non-applicable. This is Texas which is basically the inverse of anything on your continent. I mean the sun still shines and the wind still blows but that's about the end of the similarities.
@root said: I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Yeah, I thought that might be where you were going. Completely non-applicable. This is Texas which is basically the inverse of anything on your continent. I mean the sun still shines and the wind still blows but that's about the end of the similarities.
You forgot to add most of their own continent as well. Texas can be like no other place in the U.S.
@root said: I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Yeah, I thought that might be where you were going. Completely non-applicable. This is Texas which is basically the inverse of anything on your continent. I mean the sun still shines and the wind still blows but that's about the end of the similarities.
You forgot to add most of their own continent as well. Texas can be like no other place in the U.S.
People ask if I've left the country and I usually respond with, "I've been to Texas."
@root said:
The legal purchase of clients is just a traditional solution which I saw being done multiple times, as one company buys another.
Personally I am against touching data of customers without at least customers consent. One needs to have consent of customers in order to pull them into a different contract with a different legal entity. This is how honest business works. One also needs to have consent of previous provider to take away their clients (but I understand this is more of a friendship between owners, so legal lines here are quite blurry as to what is allowed and what is not).
There are downfalls to an outright purchase of NB. That is why purchasing specifically the email clients (if it were even possible: it's likely not) was mentioned. There is the potential if @jarland had purchased NB outright that he would now also absorb debts and contractual obligations that are way out of scope or extremely economically untenable. This doesn't even account for the fact that he would only be interested in the MXroute reseller clients and not obligations for all the web hosting/VPS stuff.
It's just not that simple nor is it anything to do with "honest business". Maybe it's due to text, but it comes across as somewhat accusatory towards his intentions as being dishonorable or shady when you're really not giving due process and equal consideration to all avenues practically available. An outright purchase of NB could result in unsurmountable levels of debt and legal financial obligations towards MXroute which could potentially lead to bankruptcy. Saying MXroute has to buy NB to fix this respectfully and legally is misguided at best, lethal (to MXroute) at worst.
I don't think anyone is currently promoting the idea of just "stealing" clients or doing anything without client opt-in/consent. If they are, then I definitely disagree with that approach. Additionally, if the previous provider voids their agreement (nonpayment, for example) there is no consent needed from them to "take away their clients". That protection was lost as soon as that contract became null and void. The only thing required is for said clients to consent/opt-in/agree to continuing their same service under a new agreement directly with MXroute (or another reseller).
Aside from the fact that people will inevitably lose money and data from this, it is kind of an interesting puzzle to work out if you're one of the providers left picking up the pieces.
@root said:
The legal purchase of clients is just a traditional solution which I saw being done multiple times, as one company buys another.
Personally I am against touching data of customers without at least customers consent. One needs to have consent of customers in order to pull them into a different contract with a different legal entity. This is how honest business works. One also needs to have consent of previous provider to take away their clients (but I understand this is more of a friendship between owners, so legal lines here are quite blurry as to what is allowed and what is not).
There are downfalls to an outright purchase of NB. That is why purchasing specifically the email clients (if it were even possible: it's likely not) was mentioned. There is the potential if @jarland had purchased NB outright that he would now also absorb debts and contractual obligations that are way out of scope or extremely economically untenable. This doesn't even account for the fact that he would only be interested in the MXroute reseller clients and not obligations for all the web hosting/VPS stuff.
Obviously MXRoute is interested in the clients with email. So in this case MXRoute could negotiate a buy for just this section of NexusBytes business
It's just not that simple nor is it anything to do with "honest business". Maybe it's due to text, but it comes across as somewhat accusatory towards his intentions as being dishonorable or shady when you're really not giving due process and equal consideration to all avenues practically available. An outright purchase of NB could result in unsurmountable levels of debt and legal financial obligations towards MXroute which could potentially lead to bankruptcy. Saying MXroute has to buy NB to fix this respectfully and legally is misguided at best, lethal (to MXroute) at worst.
This is the biggest enigma. Debts, practicability, understandings and obligations - this is all between the 2 companies and their contracts. I do not know, and nobody should know, what is the contract or understanding between them at the negotiation table.
I don't think anyone is currently promoting the idea of just "stealing" clients or doing anything without client opt-in/consent. If they are, then I definitely disagree with that approach.
I am also in the same opinion with you. There should be no stealing of clients.
Additionally, if the previous provider voids their agreement (nonpayment, for example) there is no consent needed from them to "take away their clients".
There is a needed consent. The data does not belong to MXRoute. The clients do not belong to MXRoute. Most likely from the contract between MXRoute and NexusBytes, the data belongs to NexusBytes, and the responsibility towards clients belongs to NexusBytes from an MXRoute perspective. A client of NexusBytes is the client of NexusBytes, and that's it, even if the email is provided by MXRoute towards NexusBytes, and the dedicated server is provided by some datacenter to MXRoute, while the network is provided by some other company to the datacenter.
That protection was lost as soon as that contract became null and void.
True. But this does not entitle MXRoute to the customers or their data. If I go to a restaurant and buy a meal, then I enjoy my meal but refuse to pay, it does not mean the restaurant can take my bag and my phone for the service provided to create justice themselves. There are legal implications for such mess.
The only thing required is for said clients to consent/opt-in/agree to continuing their same service under a new agreement directly with MXroute (or another reseller).
This is the honest business argument. Any provider should need the consent of customers to manipulate their data or personal information.
Aside from the fact that people will inevitably lose money and data from this, it is kind of an interesting puzzle to work out if you're one of the providers left picking up the pieces.
True. Because I agree, I previously mentioned as one of the most effective solutions: a simple offer. Instead of dragging MXRoute into this mess of privacy, a simple public message of regrets towards NexusBytes as a respected reseller, along with an MXRoute special refugee offer for their clients should suffice. This is a practical way of being and acting kind, without getting your hands dirty into a business management which does not belong to you.
@AlwaysSkint said: My primary purposes for using mxroute are to receive emails from my few clients AND to get system notifications from my servers. I average about 30 emails/day from my servers.
I am looking at getting a purelymail.com account in the future, when my inbox.eu subscription runs out, looks like it has a lot of great features for a small price, you can bring it down to like $5-6 a year adjusting things like own domain etc.
@dgc1980 said: I am looking at getting a purelymail.com..
..our infrastructure runs on the highly reliable AWS cloud.
Alongside a heap of other accounts, that like to try to hack/scan servers across the World. Not that Hetzner,OVH are any better.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural. It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
Just a quick note on where I’ve settled for resold MXroute services from NexusBytes:
Everyone will get an email letting them know that their services will not be altered or harmed until a date at least 1 year in the future, and given a recommendation on where and how to migrate their services.
Basically I don’t want to take up the plans, deal with manually proving and approving all of their discounts and such, and I don’t want think I have incentives for another reseller that would make that amount of work worth it to them either. It’s really the cost to benefit ratio, and I think this is a healthy middle ground between letting users know our resellers are supported and backed by us in an emergency and just making sure everyone has ample time to get where they need to be.
It’s less than I wanted to do but it’s more than I should be obligated to do, compromising on both ends usually seems to offer the best balance.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Comments
I guess what I really wanted to end that with was that regardless of any feelings or thoughts about this situation, I wouldn’t use it to project my next decision on something else. My next decision on something that seems similar, externally, could very well be or appear to be inconsistent with my reaction here. Moving forward I want to outline a policy that can try to give a clear outline of expectations. But in trying to outline that in a way that best fits all possible situations of the type, that may not take into account variables like:
All thoughts and feelings that I’ve heard here are valid, I just want to be clear that precedent is not going to be defined by this situation. Though it certainly will help to inform what will become precedent.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
All this precedent, expectations, who knows who and what, thoughts, outlines and projections.... @jarland what did you take? I want some of that too.
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Moved one of my clients from my own SmallWeb (NB) account, to their own onepoundemail - a customer gain for @MichaelCee.
[Before someone says/asks: it was a favour to my client who has even less funds than me! It is also very low email throughput.]
Used the inbuilt IMAPsync and that was a painless exercise. Great!
(Wish I'd sussed that before the missus cancelled her account. :'( )
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
I understand the good gesture/ intentions of helping those affected as a motivator for considering what @jarland proposed.
But technically, every customer who signed up with a reseller had an option of signing up directly with Mxroute. It was the customer's decision to opt for reseller X (in this case, NB) instead. Why should the Mxroute be concerned whether NB customers have been left in the lurch or not? It
Legally nothing ties the two together, it was the customer's responsibility to make backups in any case. Customer always have an option of signing up with Mxroute.
In that context,
What triggered all the discussions and positions over the past few pages? What did I miss ?
blog archives
People routinely ask if my resellers are safe to do business with. This event will cause a reduction in overall trust of MXroute resellers, possibly leading to reduced growth for my most profitable service. It doesn’t hurt that being the good guy and propping up the first major failure of a reseller for my own benefit (not for the profit from these users, but for the potential profits for all resellers as a whole) happen to line up.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
i would think in an ideal situation, the (more reputable) reseller(s) make the refugee offers while supported by mxroute. this further adds value to the business model.
that being said mxroute is probably the most mature provider in this case.
never needed to login to mxroute since emails always work.
I bench YABS 24/7/365 unless it's a leap year.
Thanks - this is much more understandable now.
One option - an extension of what @Cybertech mentioned- could be to set up a “path to migration “ page for affected folks:
i.e customers in good standing can choose from a set of resellers
where account migration can be facilitated/possible. That way customers reach out first, the migration happens with their consent, issue of poaching should not arise. Wrt pool of resellers, I am thinking something like Bandwidth alliance that Cloudflare has. But specific to email.
Added later:
A better example could be what the original Centos developers did after Redhat dropped the ball on Centos. Community was reassured of continuity, third party vendors joined in, path to migration was quickly drawn up…. Relatively speaking
On second thoughts,
Maybe I jumped into the discussion too late to add any value. So I will stop here.
blog archives
Wow this seems fun, this makes me want to order VPS from nexusbytes
You know you want to.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
Somewhere along the line this seems to have changed from "retrieve your NB data" to "business advice for Jarland".
Well, RIP their website. I think it's time for mass migration. So @jarland can we get our accounts migrated directly to MXroute?
Synteq Technical Support, Technical Writer.
Contact me at: +1 (307) 428 8111 or [email protected]
Haven't bought a single service in VirMach Great Ryzen 2022 - 2023 Flash Sale.
LOL. The only question is which (non-NB) machines are referred to by those notices!
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
I don't even think that status page is automated or connected to any checks.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
The website itself maybe?
I mean, it's simply wrong/dishonest to have such a fake/misleading status page, and I wonder since when that page has been like this
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
Well, its down, so, done for now.
I rarely recommend having a status page that actually monitors and reports outages. Then you have to make sure you cover all of the bases to make sure it doesn’t report false positives, which can be more tricky under some scenarios than others (rate limits, third party reverse proxies, etc). I think it’s just that it’s manual update and abandoned like everything else.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Plottwist: it pings google.com
Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
I would rather guess localhost :-)
EDIT: Yeah, it does not need to ping anything.
Haven't bought a single service in VirMach Great Ryzen 2022 - 2023 Flash Sale.
Plottwist: it pings lowendspirit.com
I'm confused: just received an email today entitled..
With all the existing login details.
[Edit] Client Area of NB is still operational.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
The German backup server is down around 7hrs ago
Gone is an era.
DM us for private tracker invite.
smallweb is still up.
My German Free Hosting is down.
Singapore Shared Hosting is also down.
It was good till the last bite.
https://microlxc.net/
@MichaelCee I have a specific issue with your ToS:
My primary purposes for using mxroute are to receive emails from my few clients AND to get system notifications from my servers. I average about 30 emails/day from my servers.
This is holding me back from your generous refugee offer. :-/
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
IIRC correctly this may be taken from MXroute policy:
I don't know why I've written it so literally
EDIT: I've pushed an update incorporating the original wording more.
Michael from DragonWebHost & OnePoundEmail
Unfortunately looks like a case of best til last.
EDIT: If you have a domain at SmallWeb you need to take action ASAP. Now that the NexusBytes WHMCS is inaccessible, you can't download invoices and proof which is required for NameSilo to take action (unless you've already got this data).
Do the same with SmallWeb, download your domain invoices and contact NameSilo.
Michael from DragonWebHost & OnePoundEmail
You’re the rarity. Most people just have CSF/LFD tuned to default so it sends 1000 root login failures a day to Gmail from root@localhost. Obviously with no intent to read them, just a bunch of default configs treating the SMTP queue as a trash can.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
^ I'm sad; I check each email for a successful backup/system update and of course, any notification of a console login.
I have
followed by
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
Anyone got an affiliate link for new customers wanting to join SmallWeb?
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@jarland How's that backup coming along? Just asking 'cos you're here.
@MichaelCee I'm scrolling back through this thread to re-read the refugee offer due to receiving an invoice for it.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
He is not doing any backup, because it is illegal to touch the data of another provider without their consent. He only keeps it active because NexusBytes owner was a friend.
He had an offer for refugee, matching the price by creating the same NexusBytes plan within OnePoundEmail. I do not know if this offer is still active though. If it is, you better hurry and grab it while it's still hot and abusers don't see it.
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Ta, @root I forgot it was in another thread.
(Jar knows what I'm talking about.)
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
Aye, it's basically 6 months
free service for refugees and a complete spec/price match, but a payment for your billing period is required first.
Michael from DragonWebHost & OnePoundEmail
Where?
Free NAT KVM | Free NAT LXC
I believe he might be using the word “illegal” as shorthand for what could possibly be sued as a tort. I suppose “illegal” isn’t a completely unfair word to describe a tort, but it would require agreement by a judge to truly be deserving of the word in anything beyond mere opinion.
Even if that were to reach a judge, I do believe my plans around this would cause it to be easily dismissed. But if we’re talking about a friend who went MIA and is no longer residing in the states, I think it’s probably a silly discussion to spend much time on.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
I do not know the laws of United States, but in European Union holding data and personal information for which you do not have rights to hold or acquire, is considered illegal, especially considering GDPR legislation.
Again, I do not know the contract or trust between MXRoute and Nexusbytes, and therefore I do not know where anyone's rights begin and where they end, however I am willing to try and test this if need be.
There has to be some consumer protection agencies and privacy laws in United States. I know for sure that clients of NexusBytes have contract with NexusBytes directly, not with MXRoute. Nexusbytes in return has contract with MXRoute. All in all, I would love to see MXRoute buy NexusBytes and fix all this mess in a respectful and legal way, without searching for legal interpretations to move clients and their data.
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I'd assume @jarland would be held accountable by a US federal court (or Texas state law) and there is no GDPR consideration here so that is completely null. At best, some FTC or state-specific laws around emails/data but good luck making heads or tails of that.
He would be legally allowed to purchase the clients (and not have to purchase all of NB), but that would require NB to be active and responding. I am a little confused as to why you are so dead-set on MXRoute purchasing NB outright as the only "respectful and legal" way. All legalities are interpretations of law, I don't get the impression he is looking for some corny loophole here. If the reseller is completely MIA/incapacitated there are absolutely respectful and legal methods that can be pursued when an outright purchase is not possible. I thought @yoursunny had a pretty decent roadmap wherein you don't assume/move/touch any data without active client action and permission after the reseller agreement has been voided.
For an additional perspective from one of your (very happy) customers: I'd be ecstatic that you are going out of your way to make sure I don't have business interruptions with regards to my email, and making it known and clear you are backing up your product and actively supporting it by whatever means are available and safe to you. In fact, this served as a reminder for me to go get another MXRoute account purchased for our parent org domains to get it off gsuite and stop procrastinating.
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The legal purchase of clients is just a traditional solution which I saw being done multiple times, as one company buys another.
Personally I am against touching data of customers without at least customers consent. One needs to have consent of customers in order to pull them into a different contract with a different legal entity. This is how honest business works. One also needs to have consent of previous provider to take away their clients (but I understand this is more of a friendship between owners, so legal lines here are quite blurry as to what is allowed and what is not).
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I definitely respect that position and agree to disagree on some points. But to be clear, there will be the matter of consent. Each user will be contacted and offered an opportunity to provide consent, those not providing it will be given a termination date. I’m working on some automation for handling the consent, and I think it’ll all be held to a fairly high standard. I can’t promise it’ll be quite up to EU legal standards but I will satisfy a higher standard than is required by me legally in my jurisdiction.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Yeah, I thought that might be where you were going. Completely non-applicable. This is Texas which is basically the inverse of anything on your continent. I mean the sun still shines and the wind still blows but that's about the end of the similarities.
You forgot to add most of their own continent as well. Texas can be like no other place in the U.S.
The Yeti has left the building.
People ask if I've left the country and I usually respond with, "I've been to Texas."
There are downfalls to an outright purchase of NB. That is why purchasing specifically the email clients (if it were even possible: it's likely not) was mentioned. There is the potential if @jarland had purchased NB outright that he would now also absorb debts and contractual obligations that are way out of scope or extremely economically untenable. This doesn't even account for the fact that he would only be interested in the MXroute reseller clients and not obligations for all the web hosting/VPS stuff.
It's just not that simple nor is it anything to do with "honest business". Maybe it's due to text, but it comes across as somewhat accusatory towards his intentions as being dishonorable or shady when you're really not giving due process and equal consideration to all avenues practically available. An outright purchase of NB could result in unsurmountable levels of debt and legal financial obligations towards MXroute which could potentially lead to bankruptcy. Saying MXroute has to buy NB to fix this respectfully and legally is misguided at best, lethal (to MXroute) at worst.
I don't think anyone is currently promoting the idea of just "stealing" clients or doing anything without client opt-in/consent. If they are, then I definitely disagree with that approach. Additionally, if the previous provider voids their agreement (nonpayment, for example) there is no consent needed from them to "take away their clients". That protection was lost as soon as that contract became null and void. The only thing required is for said clients to consent/opt-in/agree to continuing their same service under a new agreement directly with MXroute (or another reseller).
Aside from the fact that people will inevitably lose money and data from this, it is kind of an interesting puzzle to work out if you're one of the providers left picking up the pieces.
synteqhpc.com - 2.5Gbps Custom VPS | EPYC Turin Performance VDS | 10G Instant Dedicated Servers | FrankZ still lives on in SPO03
Obviously MXRoute is interested in the clients with email. So in this case MXRoute could negotiate a buy for just this section of NexusBytes business
This is the biggest enigma. Debts, practicability, understandings and obligations - this is all between the 2 companies and their contracts. I do not know, and nobody should know, what is the contract or understanding between them at the negotiation table.
I am also in the same opinion with you. There should be no stealing of clients.
There is a needed consent. The data does not belong to MXRoute. The clients do not belong to MXRoute. Most likely from the contract between MXRoute and NexusBytes, the data belongs to NexusBytes, and the responsibility towards clients belongs to NexusBytes from an MXRoute perspective. A client of NexusBytes is the client of NexusBytes, and that's it, even if the email is provided by MXRoute towards NexusBytes, and the dedicated server is provided by some datacenter to MXRoute, while the network is provided by some other company to the datacenter.
True. But this does not entitle MXRoute to the customers or their data. If I go to a restaurant and buy a meal, then I enjoy my meal but refuse to pay, it does not mean the restaurant can take my bag and my phone for the service provided to create justice themselves. There are legal implications for such mess.
This is the honest business argument. Any provider should need the consent of customers to manipulate their data or personal information.
True. Because I agree, I previously mentioned as one of the most effective solutions: a simple offer. Instead of dragging MXRoute into this mess of privacy, a simple public message of regrets towards NexusBytes as a respected reseller, along with an MXRoute special refugee offer for their clients should suffice. This is a practical way of being and acting kind, without getting your hands dirty into a business management which does not belong to you.
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I am looking at getting a purelymail.com account in the future, when my inbox.eu subscription runs out, looks like it has a lot of great features for a small price, you can bring it down to like $5-6 a year adjusting things like own domain etc.
Alongside a heap of other accounts, that like to try to hack/scan servers across the World. Not that Hetzner,OVH are any better.
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away. || NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh).
Just a quick note on where I’ve settled for resold MXroute services from NexusBytes:
Everyone will get an email letting them know that their services will not be altered or harmed until a date at least 1 year in the future, and given a recommendation on where and how to migrate their services.
Basically I don’t want to take up the plans, deal with manually proving and approving all of their discounts and such, and I don’t want think I have incentives for another reseller that would make that amount of work worth it to them either. It’s really the cost to benefit ratio, and I think this is a healthy middle ground between letting users know our resellers are supported and backed by us in an emergency and just making sure everyone has ample time to get where they need to be.
It’s less than I wanted to do but it’s more than I should be obligated to do, compromising on both ends usually seems to offer the best balance.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.