@root said: DDoS attacks used to be a problem for IRC due to script kiddies attacking one another over IRC (or IRC servers directly)
Well, still is, unfortunately.
Was an oper on some networks over the years and I'm still here today chilling on EFnet with old friends, I can still see packet ninjas showcasing their abilities.
So yeah, "talk shit, get hit" is still a thing
"The imitator dooms himself to hopeless mediocrity." — Ralph Waldo Emerson
@root While today almost all networks allow the client to cover their real IP, the server absolutely cannot do such a thing... In fact I was talking about the server not the clients
I've been on various IRC networks since '95
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
@carlin0 said: @root While today almost all networks allow the client to cover their real IP, the server absolutely cannot do such a thing... In fact I was talking about the server not the clients
I've been on various IRC networks since '95
Server can not have IP covered or hidden. A server owner can only protect the network by discouraging war between clients. What I tried to underline is that most of attacks on IRC networks were executed to disconnect some users or to disturb a channel (community). The desired target might not be the actual network, but a client from the network, with the purpose of exposing client IP.
Usually the war is fuelled by clients fighting between one another and breaking the law like idiots. Forcefully hiding all IPs of all clients is just one of many ways of trying to discourage such conflict on server side. There are other ways too nowadays: like badword replacement (censoring) so clients don't feel so offended by bad expressions, or even kill on badwords (if server owner wants to be harsh). Examples can continue with geoblocking, but you get my point with regards to addressing the cause of DDoS, instead of addressing the actual DDoS.
What happens seems that I successfully connect to Libera in mode +Ziw, but it doesn't work to enter any commands. For example, if I enter "/join #libera" nothing happens. Also nothing happens if I enter "/quit."
Here is what I am seeing. What is my mistake?
[irc.libera.chat]
19:15 -
19:15 - Use of Libera Chat is governed by our network policies.
19:15 -
19:15 - To reduce network abuses we perform open proxy checks
19:15 - on hosts at connection time.
19:15 -
19:15 - Please visit us in #libera for questions and support.
19:15 -
19:15 - Website and documentation: https://libera.chat
19:15 - Webchat: https://web.libera.chat
19:15 - Network policies: https://libera.chat/policies
19:15 - Email: [email protected]
19:15 End of /MOTD command.
19:15 MODE - Not_Oles +Ziw
19:15 This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg
NickServ IDENTIFY Not_Oles <password>
19:15 You are now identified for Not_Oles.
19:15 Last login from: ~bashvm@$IPv6_REDACTED on Mar 20 05:30:51 2024 +0000.
19:15 900 - Not_Oles You are now logged in as Not_Oles
19:15 396 - Not_Oles is now your hidden host (set by services.)
@Not_Oles said:
What is it about ircII which is masochistic? It can't be the simplicity, because there are smarter people than me who use IRC clients way more simple than ircII. For example, the French guy from Yale who works at Google Brain has https://c9x.me/irc/ . As another example, the "hobbyist" programmer who politely responds to email, has https://github.com/mcpcpc/kirc and https://github.com/mcpcpc/irc2
I looked at the code for ircII and for irssi. There is more code in irssi, and a very contemporary build system (meson + ninja, the same as is used to compile Chromium browser). It seems possibly simpler and possibly easier to understand the ircII code than the irssi code. Besides, even if I do end up using irssi, playing with ircII helps satisfy my historical curiosity.
So, yeah, I don't get the "masochistic" part. Could you please explain that? What is masochistic about ircII? Thanks!
IRC is more than just a quick jump into a channel, a few words, and then quitting. Most people on IRC idle for days, weeks, and even years. They often find themselves simultaneously active on multiple channels across several networks, while also managing private message queues.
Does ircII support window/split screen like Irssi, so that IRC user doesn't need to scroll through all channels and private queues like fool every few seconds?
Unlike ircII, Irssi also has great support for scripting through Perl scripts, which makes it easily customizable and adaptable to personal needs. Not to mention that there are a ton of already written Irssi scripts available.
Additionally, Irssi supports multiple IRC networks, eliminating the need to have several IRC clients open for visiting your favorite IRC networks.
Irssi is still actively developed and has a much larger and more active user community. There's way more documentation, support, tips, and tricks available for customization compared to ircII.
I actually started IRCing with ircII/Epic. However, once I tried Irssi, I felt it would be foolish to go back to the old, outdated IRC client that lacks any functionality and user-friendliness.
I am not forcing you into anything, of course One can even use Telnet to join IRC (I am not kidding). However, life on IRC, especially if you're a channel operator or even server operator (you want to see clones, you want to react quickly on spam, you want to do many things you can do efficently only with a good IRC client), is much, much easier with a decent IRC client.
@Mumbly said: Does ircII support window/split screen like Irssi, so that IRC user doesn't need to scroll through all channels and private queues like fool every few seconds?
@Mumbly Yeah, thanks to your enthusiasm for irssi, I also installed irssi. What I found immediately was that the Debian packaged irssi worked out-of-the box for secure connections to Libera, which I haven't yet accomplished with ircII.
@Mumbly I certainly didn't mean to say anything against irssi or against any other IRC client. Who knows, maybe I will end up using irssi like you and like @DP. I certainly liked irssi when I tried it. I haven't looked at the irssi source code except very quickly, and I haven't compiled it yet. All things in good time.
Thanks so much for taking time to explain some of the wonderful things you especially like about irssi!
@Mumbly said: One can even use Telnet to join IRC (I am not kidding).
There was a guy on #libera yesterday who said he was connecting with telnet. The guys were talking about telnet and about ircdog. ircdog looks like fun to me.
I haven't yet tried telnet for IRC, but I have sent emails with telnet. In the old days I used to telnet to the library to use Lynx with the library's fast connection.
For anybody who might be interested in connecting to IRC with netcat and with the OpenSSL command line tool, check out Susam's https://susam.net/simplicity-of-irc.html
Here are the netcat and the OpenSSL commands that Susam shows connecting to Libera. The linked page also includes the output of these commands following the connections.
I just have to concur with @Mumbly here, save yourself a lot of time and just go with irssi.
I've been on irc since before it was even called irc so I have tried just about every client out there, and I always come back to irssi. There have been periods where I've used something else and even periods where I've run different clients in parallel, but after all this time irssi is still the one I use daily. Once you get used to always having that screen running somewhere with your irssi keeping track of things even when you are not connected, I just cant see anything else even coming close.
To be honest I have not given it a serious try, but from what I've seen it could very well be the one that gives irssi a run for it's money.
I might be wrong but firsts impression is just that it's bloated with a million features I will never ever use. But as I said, I have not given it a serious try beyond installing it and trying it for a few days, so maybe I should give it another go.
To be honest I have not given it a serious try, but from what I've seen it could very well be the one that gives irssi a run for it's money.
I might be wrong but firsts impression is just that it's bloated with a million features I will never ever use. But as I said, I have not given it a serious try beyond installing it and trying it for a few days, so maybe I should give it another go.
WeeChat is like irssi on steroids, highly recommend.
To be honest I have not given it a serious try, but from what I've seen it could very well be the one that gives irssi a run for it's money.
I might be wrong but firsts impression is just that it's bloated with a million features I will never ever use. But as I said, I have not given it a serious try beyond installing it and trying it for a few days, so maybe I should give it another go.
WeeChat is like irssi on steroids, highly recommend.
@carlin0@treesmokah Thanks for recommending weechat, guys! I took a look at it. It's very configurable and vastly expandable with modules.
For an example of weechat confiuration, maybe anyone who is interested could check the sequence of commands to configure for an 80x25 terminal. . It seems I could use some of those settings for the 89x20 hterm on my Chromebook.
Also, it seemed interesting that weechat recommends not editing the configuration files by hand, that configuration changes take effect immediately, without restarting, and that the configuration is saved at various times, including at /quit.
@Not_Oles said: @Mumbly Yeah, thanks to your enthusiasm for irssi, I also installed irssi. What I found immediately was that the Debian packaged irssi worked out-of-the box for secure connections to Libera, which I haven't yet accomplished with ircII.
Okay, maybe I finally figured out syntax for asking ircII to make a secure connection. The way to do it is described in the ircII manual page, but I didn't get it the first few times through. If I truly am now doing it right, it seems that, in addition to specifying the port, one also needs to preface the name of the server with "SSLIRC/" as in
$ irc Not_Oles SSLIRC/irc.libera.chat 6697
*** Connecting to port 6697 of server irc.libera.chat
Connected to SSL successfully!
[ . . . ]
*** Mode change "+Ziw" for user Not_Oles by Not_Oles
[ . . . ]
* Not_Oles Checks for UTF-8: 🍔
> Looks like UTF-8 is working!
> Using ircii, if I set NOVICE off, I can join a second channel without disconnecting from the
+first channel.
*** Signoff: takotonary ()
> But then, it seems I am talking on the second channel.
*** davlgd (~davlgd@user/davlgd) has joined channel #libera
> How do I talk on the first channel? Do I join the first channel again?
*** krb (~krb@gateway/vpn/pia/krb) has joined channel #libera
<krb:#libera> hi, someone just came and destroyed #philosophy
<krb:#libera> turned it into a redirect channel
<thumbs:#libera> krb: It forwards to ##philosophy
<thumbs:#libera> (which looks like the proper namespace for it)
<krb:#libera> no one of us users of the channel consented to that
<louipc:#libera> it's not a democracy
<krb:#libera> since i'm banned in ##philosophy it doesn't help me either
I've been messing more with ircii. Trying multiple windows, different shell variables, command line flags, and configuration settings, configure with and without -DEBUG, different pre-compile config.h settings, UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1, using ircii with and without tmux, multiple windows, and logging.
I haven't found an active #ircii channel. There are a couple of websites, but no mailing list that I have seen. The most recent source update seems to be 20240111.
There is an extension of ircii called ScrollZ(see also Github repo) I looked briefly at the source code. It seems obvious from the website and from the sources that the guys involved with ScrollZ were having a great time. But, ScrollZ seems quiet for the last three years. Like #ircii, I couldn't find an active #scrollz channel. Even the officially designated EFnet #scrollz channel doesn't seem to exist any more. Again like ircii, no ScrollZ mailing list.
If anybody knows where to find current activity related to ircii and/or ScrollZ, please tell me.
*** krb (~krb@gateway/vpn/pia/krb) has joined channel #libera
<krb:#libera> hi, someone just came and destroyed #philosophy
<krb:#libera> turned it into a redirect channel
<thumbs:#libera> krb: It forwards to ##philosophy
<thumbs:#libera> (which looks like the proper namespace for it)
<krb:#libera> no one of us users of the channel consented to that
<louipc:#libera> it's not a democracy
<krb:#libera> since i'm banned in ##philosophy it doesn't help me either
I've been messing more with ircii. Trying multiple windows, different shell variables, command line flags, and configuration settings, configure with and without -DEBUG, different pre-compile config.h settings, UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1, using ircii with and without tmux, multiple windows, and logging.
I haven't found an active #ircii channel. There are a couple of websites, but no mailing list that I have seen. The most recent source update seems to be 20240111.
There is an extension of ircii called ScrollZ(see also Github repo) I looked briefly at the source code. It seems obvious from the website and from the sources that the guys involved with ScrollZ were having a great time. But, ScrollZ seems quiet for the last three years. Like #ircii, I couldn't find an active #scrollz channel. Even the officially designated EFnet #scrollz channel doesn't seem to exist any more. Again like ircii, no ScrollZ mailing list.
If anybody knows where to find current activity related to ircii and/or ScrollZ, please tell me.
IRC is fun. Please keep in mind the difference between #philosophy and ##philosophy. On Libera channels with one number-sign represent projects, while 2 number-signs represent communities.
Registering a project channel requires quite some bureaucracy, with professional website and all sorts of proof, as admins wish to feel important or something. If they find you having a project channel without validation, they close it or redirect it. This is how Libera works (the irony of libera=freedom).
@root said: IRC is fun. Please keep in mind the difference between #philosophy and ##philosophy. On Libera channels with one number-sign represent projects, while 2 number-signs represent communities.
Channel namespaces
Our policies outline that channels on Libera.Chat fall into one of three categories and two namespaces. Channels that begin with only a single # character are for on-topic project and community channels (e.g. #linux). Channels that begin with two or more # characters are for informal channels (e.g. ##chat).
Registered groups additionally have their own channel namespaces that they control. This includes the “main” channel for that namespace (e.g. #libera) as well as all channels beginning with that name followed by a hyphen (e.g. #libera-dev). A registered group may have control over multiple channel namespaces. To check if a registered channel belongs to a particular group’s channel namespace, you can use the /msg ChanServ INFO command on that channel; if it is, you will receive a line like the following towards the bottom of the output:
The #libera namespace is registered to the libera.chat project
Registering a project channel requires quite some bureaucracy, with professional website and all sorts of proof, as admins wish to feel important or something. If they find you having a project channel without validation, they close it or redirect it. This is how Libera works (the irony of libera=freedom).
< s > How dare they have rules about such things. That is so anti-freedom. < /s >
Registering a project channel requires quite some bureaucracy, with professional website and all sorts of proof, as admins wish to feel important or something. If they find you having a project channel without validation, they close it or redirect it. This is how Libera works (the irony of libera=freedom).
< s > How dare they have rules about such things. That is so anti-freedom. < /s >
Well, it is compared to the good old IRCnet where server operators will directly tell you that channels and nicknames there aren't owned and they won't involve themselves in channel matters. EFnet is somewhat similar.
Both share a unique, decentralized philosophy and continue to shun nickname and channel registration, enforcing a distinct separation between network and channel matters. Since there are no registration services, "ownership" of nicknames and channels is not guaranteed.
Example:
There was an attempt going, mainly driven by Europe, to introduce a common set of rules. In Europe, we'd had such a ruleset for some time already, so we decided we'd try to work on it, and try to find a common set of rules that everyone agreed to.
In Europe, it was basically a definite requirement for the rules that only things disruptive to servers or to the net as a whole warranted operator-invention, while channel trouble was to be left to the channel operators.
That's not a knock on Libera rules. Opers on every IRC network set rules as they see fit, and those of Libera seem reasonable considering the network's orientation. Channel registrations have solved many past issues such as IRC wars, channel takeovers, and so on.
I simply comment from the perspective of a visitor from a much older IRC network.
IRC is fun. Please keep in mind the difference between #philosophy and ##philosophy. On Libera channels with one number-sign represent projects, while 2 number-signs represent communities.
Our policies outline that channels on Libera.Chat fall into one of three categories and two namespaces. Channels that begin with only a single # character are for on-topic project and community channels (e.g. #linux). Channels that begin with two or more # characters are for informal channels (e.g. ##chat).
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
For MetalVPS I decided to use the IRC servers of the kind folks at Libera for a while. Does my first effort at setting up a channel seem okay? Thanks!
# Registered #metalvps
18: /msg ChanServ INFO #metalvps
-> *ChanServ* INFO #metalvps
-ChanServ- #metalvps is not registered.
19: /join #metalvps
*** Not_Oles (~bashvm@user/Not-Oles/x-9034114) has joined channel #metalvps
*** Mode change "+Cnst" on channel #metalvps by tungsten.libera.chat
*** #metalvps 1712084626
20: /who *
#metalvps Not_Oles H@ ~bashvm@user/Not-Oles/x-9034114 (Tom)
21: /msg ChanServ REGISTER #metalvps
-> *ChanServ* REGISTER #metalvps
-ChanServ- #metalvps is now registered to Not_Oles.
23: /mode #metalvps +r
*** Mode change "+r" on channel #metalvps by Not_Oles
25: /help topic
26: /topic #metalvps MetalVPS.com | VPS and bare metal servers for open source education and fun.
+| Not for business use.
*** Not_Oles has changed the topic on channel #metalvps to MetalVPS.com | VPS and bare metal
+servers for open source education and fun. | Not for business use.
28: /mode #metalvps -s
*** Mode change "-s" on channel #metalvps by Not_Oles
BitchX is essentially a glorified spawn of pre-historical ircII with numerous added scripts, many of which could get you banned from IRC channels if you fail to remove default settings (like public auto-away messages - people really hate those) or without disabling default channel protection scripts as a channel operator could get your friends auto-banned. I don't know what Panasync was thinking ...
Furthermore, I am not sure if this software is still maintained (last release in 2014?), and it might still be susceptible to vulnerabilities, as is common with the crap based on ircII https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2021/03/24/2
Probably I made a mistake, but the reason +r is set on #metalvps is that, according to Libera, "most bots do not log in to accounts." It seemed to me that, at the beginning, it might be better to try keeping the channel more simple by excluding bots and unregistered users.
Libera says, "users connecting to Libera.Chat without accounts will remain uncloaked." Do you want to stay uncloaked?
Are there differences between logging in to Libera and logging in to a green forum?
Could you please help me understand other reasons why people might not want to register their nicks with Libera and log in to their Libera accounts? What am I missing?
It's really not that important, but I can help you understand.
@Not_Oles said: at the beginning, it might be better to try keeping the channel more simple by excluding bots and unregistered users.
At the beginning, you want visitors. Locking the channel is counterproductive in that sense. The best analogy for +r would be a non-public/secret/locked forum where only registered users can see posts.
Channel owners generally want the channel filled with people and set +r as a temporary measure only in cases where there are problematic ban evaders, etc. Exceptions may include some "teamler" channels (i.e., internal forum staff sections) or the need to stay exclusive for some reason.
@Not_Oles said: Libera says, "users connecting to Libera.Chat without accounts will remain uncloaked." Do you want to stay uncloaked?
It makes no difference for casual visitor. People from EFnet and IRCnet survived 30 years of IRCing without cloaking It's nice option to have it, but some people still prefer "vanity vhosts" (that's part of the irc culture) or simply don't bothet with that. Just hopping on IRC every now and then does not require a cloak. Especially if that's not your primary IRC network (Libera is just one of many).
@Not_Oles said: Could you please help me understand other reasons why people might not want to register their nicks with Libera and log in to their Libera accounts? What am I missing?
Thanks for helping me understand!
Yes, of course - it's just IRC. That's completely optional on some IRC networks, and there's no option to do that on the others. It makes sense to register in case you want to "own" a nickname if the network supports it, but apart from that it's just optional.
Just hopping on IRC every now and then does not require a account. Especially if that's not your primary IRC network (Libera is just one of many) - again. That's the beauty of IRC compared to all those newer, modern social platforms that require registration.
When you started researching IRC, how many channels did not let you in because you weren't registered?
That's just reposting as you have same thread on two forums most of us participate
This is not how IRC works. IRC can't be judged through modern platform glasses or compared with forums.
The beauty of IRC is that anyone can join and start chatting. IRC itself does not require user account registrations. The original idea of IRC was that a nickname is just a nickname, not a form of user identification. The original IRC networks still adhere to that philosophy, while others may not. However, IRC networks including Libera do not require user account registrations just some channels do.
While some channels do require registration, it's rare. There are usually one of the two reasons for this. One is due to a tendency to create an exclusive "1337" club, and the other is entirely legitimate, such as preventing too much noise from visitors on high-traffic support channels.
When you said, "It seems okay if there is a low, easily overcome barrier to entry," you're actually creating a limitation, barrier, for the channel, not for the visitors. You see, there are hundreds of IRC networks and thousands of IRC channels. People have choice. But it depends on what you want to achieve with the channel. Do you want to build a nice community or just to keep around half-dozen of idlers?
The primary reason why most people try to join channel as yours is curiosity. It's not for some significant, important reason, just curiosity. But when faced with a message like "Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be logged into your NickServ account," they will simply flee away and forget about it instantly. Because they don't need your channel to exist on IRC. It's other way around - you need a people to call your chatroom a #channel. That's how things work on IRC.
People in general wont invest effort into joining your channel; if anyone it will likely be you investing the effort to invite people on the channel.
If you simply want to keep some potential nuisances out (new, small channels won't experience noteworthy nuisances), there are proper channel modes to achieve that, such as +s (secret) or +p (private).
When a channel is set to +s mode, it means that the channel will not appear in the list of channels when someone uses the "/list" command. Users also won't see +s channels when they use the "/whois" command to retrieve information about a specific user.
The writing above is solely for your understanding of IRC. It's not meant to pressure you into anything. I am also aware that my perspective may differ from the perspective of those who have grown up with the internet and social networks over the last 15 years or so.
If you feel more comfortable with +r mode, then so be it. How channels are managed is solely in the hands of the operator, or to say it differently, "your channel - your rules," and there's no one who can object to that as long as it's within network guidelines.
"Google has found IRC to be a huge boon in incident response. IRC is very reliable and can be used as a log of communications about this event, and such a record is invaluable in keeping detailed state changes in mind. We’ve also written bots that log incident-related traffic (which is helpful for postmortem analysis), and other bots that log events such as alerts to the channel. IRC is also a convenient medium over which geographically distributed teams can coordinate."
Basshunter would hang out on his QuakeNet IRC channel, as many Finns did at that time, playing WoW and occasionally creating some silly music. There was this IRC bot, or so he thought, named Anna, residing in his channel, which he consistently ignored. Until one day he realized that Anna wasn't a bot but rather his friend's girlfriend.
This is the story behind the song.
Original video with translations:
(I am getting "This video contains content from WMG, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds")
Original video without translations:
(hehe, all those nostalgic comments under the video)
Backup (non original video, just song with some weird translations)
@Mumbly said:
One small, random piece of IRC folklore.
Basshunter would hang out on his QuakeNet IRC channel, as many Finns did at that time, playing WoW and occasionally creating some silly music.
Just have to point out that Basshunter is Swedish, not Finnish.
And man, I hated that song. In Swedish, the word 'bot' is pronounced the same as 'båt', Swedish for boat. So everyone here was singing "I know a boat". The fact that 'channel' can mean both irc-channel or a body of water did not make it any better. Trying to explain to people that the song was actually about irc and a bot and had nothing to do with boats did not exactly make you popular at parties.
Hehe, yeah. My bad about Finnish/Swedish... The song was released 18 years ago, and my memory isn't what it used to be
He released also an English version called "Now You're Gone" based on Boten Anna one year later, but since it's not IRC related, there's nothing to talk about.
DotA on the other hand was a real hit
@Not_Oles many sources have disappeared over time but here is some interesting reading that delve into historical details, tracing the development of various things from their early years up to 2005.
Some things that appear completely illogical from today's perspective on social networks made complete sense back then.
Here below are a few quotes from Dr. Ishi's analysis of The Great Split, pages 163-164 of the pdf linked by @Mumbly:
Among the server administrators, there were two basic opinions about who should be generally allowed to the network: Open server vs. closed server.
Those favoring open server argued that any server should be allowed without regard to any formal process or criteria. They wanted to uphold the fundamental principle of openness. In order to serve this openness principle, the open server proponents also suggested to change the topology of the network from a tree to a star topology: Every server should connect to one central server.
In contrast, the closed server fraction argued with security and IRC net stability. If anyone was allowed as server, it would be to easy to gain the power of an IRC admin, and thus at the same time IRC operator status, ultimately giving all users the same power in the IRC network.
The open server proponents set up a central server at "eris.berkeley.edu", and allowed any other host to connect to it as server . This network was named appropriately as "Anarchynet" or "Anet". Those favoring the close server concept renamed their network to "EFnet" for "eris free network".
After it became clear the the open/closed server conflict could not be resolved through debate, this conflict was "solved" by proof of concept: each side set up the network they wanted, and let the undecided server admins as well as the users decide. In this case, the EFnet survived and thrives today, while the Anet left no traces other than the conflict.
From page 167:
. . . [T]he main hypothesis of this work that the analysis of the source code of the IRC reveals distinct «code» features, and that the «code» constitutes a regulation system similar to, but distinct from the legal system.
From page 153, the IRC server's configuration line to Quarantine the eris Anet server is a canonical example of "code governance."
Algorithm 16 ”Quarantine” configuration line (Q-line)
# Quarantine lines. These lines disallow connections to the
# specified server and drops the link to anyone connecting to them.
Q::they have a server open server:eris.berkeley.edu
Source: [irc2.5.1.bu.08/doc/example.conf:109-111].
There exists a symmetry in the English language uses of the word "code" between computer code as rules for governance, as in the linked thesis, and the set of rules for social governance which literally is also called "code," as in "United States Code."
Do Usenet's 1994 Eternal September "increase in low-quality posts" and The Great IRC Split of 1996 mark the beginning of and show the reason for the "Walled Gardens" about which so many of us complain nowadays?
Wikipedia says, "Initially, most IRC servers formed a single IRC network, to which new servers could join without restriction, but this was soon abused by people who set up servers to sabotage other users, channels, or servers. In August 1990, the server eris.berkeley.edu remained the only one to allow anyone to connect to the servers." Was "The Great Split" the internet's initial lesson about "Why We Can't Have Nice Things?"
@Not_Oles said:
[...] Was "The Great Split" the internet's initial lesson about "Why We Can't Have Nice Things?"
Yes. I also believe it was the first lesson about how we can't have nice things.
Humans are creatures of deep emotions aspiring to infinity. When conflicts and animosities come into play, rationality goes out the window to not accept defeat or undermining or loss, while emotions take control. This is why IRC attracted DDoS in the past and providers suffered, as people were fighting one another escalating things over petty talk.
As a personal note: sometimes I like to think of ourselves as monkeys in banana trees, fighting over bananas even though there are plenty bananas everywhere in the forest. As we get more technologically advanced weapons, we might burn down the whole forest, just to prove we have the rights and arguments to control bananas. Proof: more than 13.000 nukes available.
@Not_Oles said: In August 1990, the server eris.berkeley.edu remained the only one to allow anyone to connect to the servers." Was "The Great Split" the internet's initial lesson about "Why We Can't Have Nice Things?"
Small edit.
Don't mix the early separation of chaotic Anet and Eris-Free Network in 1990 (which was essentially just cleaning up a mess) with the later event known as "The Great Split", which occurred in 1996, resulting in EFnet and IRCnet becoming two separate networks.
Comments
Well, still is, unfortunately.
Was an oper on some networks over the years and I'm still here today chilling on EFnet with old friends, I can still see packet ninjas showcasing their abilities.
So yeah, "talk shit, get hit" is still a thing
"The imitator dooms himself to hopeless mediocrity." — Ralph Waldo Emerson
@root While today almost all networks allow the client to cover their real IP, the server absolutely cannot do such a thing... In fact I was talking about the server not the clients
I've been on various IRC networks since '95
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
Server wise, it's just a config file, but it's not like everyone here has tried dozens of servers
ergo is the fastest to setup, with modern compatibility
unrealircd involves running "make/install" and thats it
they are never hard, just pay attention
Server can not have IP covered or hidden. A server owner can only protect the network by discouraging war between clients. What I tried to underline is that most of attacks on IRC networks were executed to disconnect some users or to disturb a channel (community). The desired target might not be the actual network, but a client from the network, with the purpose of exposing client IP.
Usually the war is fuelled by clients fighting between one another and breaking the law like idiots. Forcefully hiding all IPs of all clients is just one of many ways of trying to discourage such conflict on server side. There are other ways too nowadays: like badword replacement (censoring) so clients don't feel so offended by bad expressions, or even kill on badwords (if server owner wants to be harsh). Examples can continue with geoblocking, but you get my point with regards to addressing the cause of DDoS, instead of addressing the actual DDoS.
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Been messing with the nice IRC client from https://c9x.me/irc/.
What happens seems that I successfully connect to Libera in mode +Ziw, but it doesn't work to enter any commands. For example, if I enter "/join #libera" nothing happens. Also nothing happens if I enter "/quit."
Here is what I am seeing. What is my mistake?
Got it!
IRC is more than just a quick jump into a channel, a few words, and then quitting. Most people on IRC idle for days, weeks, and even years. They often find themselves simultaneously active on multiple channels across several networks, while also managing private message queues.
Does ircII support window/split screen like Irssi, so that IRC user doesn't need to scroll through all channels and private queues like fool every few seconds?
One can even use Telnet to join IRC (I am not kidding). However, life on IRC, especially if you're a channel operator or even server operator (you want to see clones, you want to react quickly on spam, you want to do many things you can do efficently only with a good IRC client), is much, much easier with a decent IRC client.
Unlike ircII, Irssi also has great support for scripting through Perl scripts, which makes it easily customizable and adaptable to personal needs. Not to mention that there are a ton of already written Irssi scripts available.
Additionally, Irssi supports multiple IRC networks, eliminating the need to have several IRC clients open for visiting your favorite IRC networks.
Irssi is still actively developed and has a much larger and more active user community. There's way more documentation, support, tips, and tricks available for customization compared to ircII.
I actually started IRCing with ircII/Epic. However, once I tried Irssi, I felt it would be foolish to go back to the old, outdated IRC client that lacks any functionality and user-friendliness.
I am not forcing you into anything, of course
@Mumbly Yeah, thanks to your enthusiasm for irssi, I also installed irssi. What I found immediately was that the Debian packaged irssi worked out-of-the box for secure connections to Libera, which I haven't yet accomplished with ircII.
@Mumbly I certainly didn't mean to say anything against irssi or against any other IRC client. Who knows, maybe I will end up using irssi like you and like @DP. I certainly liked irssi when I tried it. I haven't looked at the irssi source code except very quickly, and I haven't compiled it yet. All things in good time.
Thanks so much for taking time to explain some of the wonderful things you especially like about irssi!
There was a guy on #libera yesterday who said he was connecting with telnet. The guys were talking about telnet and about ircdog. ircdog looks like fun to me.
I haven't yet tried telnet for IRC, but I have sent emails with telnet. In the old days I used to telnet to the library to use Lynx with the library's fast connection.
For anybody who might be interested in connecting to IRC with netcat and with the OpenSSL command line tool, check out Susam's https://susam.net/simplicity-of-irc.html
Here are the netcat and the OpenSSL commands that Susam shows connecting to Libera. The linked page also includes the output of these commands following the connections.
$ nc irc.libera.chat 6667$ openssl s_client -quiet -connect irc.libera.chat:6697 2> /dev/nullBest wishes!
I just have to concur with @Mumbly here, save yourself a lot of time and just go with irssi.
I've been on irc since before it was even called irc so I have tried just about every client out there, and I always come back to irssi. There have been periods where I've used something else and even periods where I've run different clients in parallel, but after all this time irssi is still the one I use daily. Once you get used to always having that screen running somewhere with your irssi keeping track of things even when you are not connected, I just cant see anything else even coming close.
WeeChat in my opinion is even better
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
To be honest I have not given it a serious try, but from what I've seen it could very well be the one that gives irssi a run for it's money.
I might be wrong but firsts impression is just that it's bloated with a million features I will never ever use. But as I said, I have not given it a serious try beyond installing it and trying it for a few days, so maybe I should give it another go.
I am using https://www.amirc.org/ as client.
I have some really old tutorials on LowEndGuide.
https://lowendguide.com/3/irc/charybdis-complete-irc-daemon/
“Technology is best when it brings people together.” – Matt Mullenweg
From Charybdis' Github Archived Repository:
It will be fun to take a look at Solanum!
WeeChat is like irssi on steroids, highly recommend.
@carlin0 @treesmokah Thanks for recommending weechat, guys! I took a look at it. It's very configurable and vastly expandable with modules.
For an example of weechat confiuration, maybe anyone who is interested could check the sequence of commands to configure for an 80x25 terminal. . It seems I could use some of those settings for the 89x20 hterm on my Chromebook.
Also, it seemed interesting that weechat recommends not editing the configuration files by hand, that configuration changes take effect immediately, without restarting, and that the configuration is saved at various times, including at /quit.
Best wishes and thanks again!
Okay, maybe I finally figured out syntax for asking ircII to make a secure connection. The way to do it is described in the ircII manual page, but I didn't get it the first few times through. If I truly am now doing it right, it seems that, in addition to specifying the port, one also needs to preface the name of the server with "SSLIRC/" as in
Nope. Wrong.
Need the ":". 
Like this:
irc Not_Oles SSLIRC/irc.libera.chat:6697Just went by ctrl-c.club and found scrollz.
Also looked at all the Debian packages for weechat.
Okay, looks like there is /BIND and /WINDOW.
A quick update from IRC
This morning, #philosophy was destroyed!
I've been messing more with ircii. Trying multiple windows, different shell variables, command line flags, and configuration settings, configure with and without -DEBUG, different pre-compile config.h settings, UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1, using ircii with and without tmux, multiple windows, and logging.
I haven't found an active #ircii channel. There are a couple of websites, but no mailing list that I have seen. The most recent source update seems to be 20240111.
There is an extension of ircii called ScrollZ (see also Github repo) I looked briefly at the source code. It seems obvious from the website and from the sources that the guys involved with ScrollZ were having a great time. But, ScrollZ seems quiet for the last three years. Like #ircii, I couldn't find an active #scrollz channel. Even the officially designated EFnet #scrollz channel doesn't seem to exist any more. Again like ircii, no ScrollZ mailing list.
If anybody knows where to find current activity related to ircii and/or ScrollZ, please tell me.
Besides ircii and ScrollZ, I've looked at c9x.me's IRC client, ii from suckless, Susam's nice post about accessing IRC with netcat and with the openssl s_client, irssi, weechat, mcpcpc's clients, and others. As mentioned above, I briefly looked at a few servers. Last but not least, I have the IRC RFC 1459 open and still want to skim though it.
Lots of fun!
IRC is fun. Please keep in mind the difference between #philosophy and ##philosophy. On Libera channels with one number-sign represent projects, while 2 number-signs represent communities.
Registering a project channel requires quite some bureaucracy, with professional website and all sorts of proof, as admins wish to feel important or something. If they find you having a project channel without validation, they close it or redirect it. This is how Libera works (the irony of libera=freedom).
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Got it! Thanks!
From https://libera.chat/chanreg/
A few more bits about ScrollZ in case anyone might be interested:
ScrollZ Debian patches
Pending ScrollZ pull request -- Fixed build for clang16 and lto #30 November 15, 2022
< s > How dare they have rules about such things. That is so anti-freedom. < /s >
Well, it is compared to the good old IRCnet where server operators will directly tell you that channels and nicknames there aren't owned and they won't involve themselves in channel matters. EFnet is somewhat similar.
Both share a unique, decentralized philosophy and continue to shun nickname and channel registration, enforcing a distinct separation between network and channel matters. Since there are no registration services, "ownership" of nicknames and channels is not guaranteed.
Example:
That's not a knock on Libera rules. Opers on every IRC network set rules as they see fit, and those of Libera seem reasonable considering the network's orientation. Channel registrations have solved many past issues such as IRC wars, channel takeovers, and so on.
I simply comment from the perspective of a visitor from a much older IRC network.
It's not quite like that... https://libera.chat/chanreg/
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
For MetalVPS I decided to use the IRC servers of the kind folks at Libera for a while. Does my first effort at setting up a channel seem okay? Thanks!
A couple guys have joined #metalvps at Libera! Thanks guys!
irssi or xbitch? or was it bitchx?
Irssi anytime.
BitchX is essentially a glorified spawn of pre-historical ircII with numerous added scripts, many of which could get you banned from IRC channels if you fail to remove default settings (like public auto-away messages - people really hate those) or without disabling default channel protection scripts as a channel operator could get your friends auto-banned. I don't know what Panasync was thinking ...
Furthermore, I am not sure if this software is still maintained (last release in 2014?), and it might still be susceptible to vulnerabilities, as is common with the crap based on ircII https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2021/03/24/2
edit.
there https://github.com/BitchX/BitchX1.3/ were some commits 2 - 3 years ago.
Anyway, Irssi or weechat is the way to go.
The thing that made BitchX famous in the late 1990s was that it was the first client to natively support IPV6
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
@Mumbly are you in #metalvps ? do not see you
It's still for registered only :P
Since a few days on libera by registering the nickname you automatically have the cloak
https://libera.chat/news/autocloaking
"How miserable life is in the abuses of power..."
F. Battiato ---
The Yeti has left the building.
Hi @Mumbly!
Probably I made a mistake, but the reason +r is set on #metalvps is that, according to Libera, "most bots do not log in to accounts." It seemed to me that, at the beginning, it might be better to try keeping the channel more simple by excluding bots and unregistered users.
Libera says, "users connecting to Libera.Chat without accounts will remain uncloaked." Do you want to stay uncloaked?
Are there differences between logging in to Libera and logging in to a green forum?
Could you please help me understand other reasons why people might not want to register their nicks with Libera and log in to their Libera accounts? What am I missing?
Thanks for helping me understand! Best wishes!
Tom
It's really not that important, but I can help you understand.
At the beginning, you want visitors. Locking the channel is counterproductive in that sense. The best analogy for +r would be a non-public/secret/locked forum where only registered users can see posts.
Channel owners generally want the channel filled with people and set +r as a temporary measure only in cases where there are problematic ban evaders, etc. Exceptions may include some "teamler" channels (i.e., internal forum staff sections) or the need to stay exclusive for some reason.
It makes no difference for casual visitor. People from EFnet and IRCnet survived 30 years of IRCing without cloaking
It's nice option to have it, but some people still prefer "vanity vhosts" (that's part of the irc culture) or simply don't bothet with that. Just hopping on IRC every now and then does not require a cloak. Especially if that's not your primary IRC network (Libera is just one of many).
Yes, of course - it's just IRC. That's completely optional on some IRC networks, and there's no option to do that on the others. It makes sense to register in case you want to "own" a nickname if the network supports it, but apart from that it's just optional.
Just hopping on IRC every now and then does not require a account. Especially if that's not your primary IRC network (Libera is just one of many) - again. That's the beauty of IRC compared to all those newer, modern social platforms that require registration.
When you started researching IRC, how many channels did not let you in because you weren't registered?
@Mumbly Thanks for explaining about the +r!
It seems okay if there is a low, easily overcome barrier to entry.
Is there a way for someone like you to be allowed in as an individual exception to the registration requirement?
About the first thing I did was register an account on Libera, so trying to join channels while unregistered hasn't really come up yet for me.
Thanks again!
This is not how IRC works. IRC can't be judged through modern platform glasses or compared with forums.
The beauty of IRC is that anyone can join and start chatting. IRC itself does not require user account registrations. The original idea of IRC was that a nickname is just a nickname, not a form of user identification. The original IRC networks still adhere to that philosophy, while others may not. However, IRC networks including Libera do not require user account registrations just some channels do.
While some channels do require registration, it's rare. There are usually one of the two reasons for this. One is due to a tendency to create an exclusive "1337" club, and the other is entirely legitimate, such as preventing too much noise from visitors on high-traffic support channels.
When you said, "It seems okay if there is a low, easily overcome barrier to entry," you're actually creating a limitation, barrier, for the channel, not for the visitors. You see, there are hundreds of IRC networks and thousands of IRC channels. People have choice. But it depends on what you want to achieve with the channel. Do you want to build a nice community or just to keep around half-dozen of idlers?
The primary reason why most people try to join channel as yours is curiosity. It's not for some significant, important reason, just curiosity. But when faced with a message like "Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be logged into your NickServ account," they will simply flee away and forget about it instantly. Because they don't need your channel to exist on IRC. It's other way around - you need a people to call your chatroom a #channel. That's how things work on IRC.
People in general wont invest effort into joining your channel; if anyone it will likely be you investing the effort to invite people on the channel.
If you simply want to keep some potential nuisances out (new, small channels won't experience noteworthy nuisances), there are proper channel modes to achieve that, such as +s (secret) or +p (private).
When a channel is set to +s mode, it means that the channel will not appear in the list of channels when someone uses the "/list" command. Users also won't see +s channels when they use the "/whois" command to retrieve information about a specific user.
The writing above is solely for your understanding of IRC. It's not meant to pressure you into anything. I am also aware that my perspective may differ from the perspective of those who have grown up with the internet and social networks over the last 15 years or so.
If you feel more comfortable with +r mode, then so be it. How channels are managed is solely in the hands of the operator, or to say it differently, "your channel - your rules," and there's no one who can object to that as long as it's within network guidelines.
irssi and terminal?! Neah! An IRC client can run low, much lower than we even think in modern computing environments, even in BIOS UEFI: https://www.tomshardware.com/software/someone-made-a-functioning-irc-client-that-runs-entirely-inside-the-motherboards-uefi
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Not sure what to do with this.
It seems like just a random messed up snippet that happens to mention IRC for some reason.
One small, random piece of IRC folklore.
Basshunter would hang out on his QuakeNet IRC channel, as many Finns did at that time, playing WoW and occasionally creating some silly music. There was this IRC bot, or so he thought, named Anna, residing in his channel, which he consistently ignored. Until one day he realized that Anna wasn't a bot but rather his friend's girlfriend.
This is the story behind the song.
Original video with translations:
(I am getting "This video contains content from WMG, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds")
Original video without translations:
(hehe, all those nostalgic comments under the video)
Backup (non original video, just song with some weird translations)
Just have to point out that Basshunter is Swedish, not Finnish.
And man, I hated that song. In Swedish, the word 'bot' is pronounced the same as 'båt', Swedish for boat. So everyone here was singing "I know a boat". The fact that 'channel' can mean both irc-channel or a body of water did not make it any better. Trying to explain to people that the song was actually about irc and a bot and had nothing to do with boats did not exactly make you popular at parties.
Hehe, yeah. My bad about Finnish/Swedish... The song was released 18 years ago, and my memory isn't what it used to be
He released also an English version called "Now You're Gone" based on Boten Anna one year later, but since it's not IRC related, there's nothing to talk about.
DotA on the other hand was a real hit
@Not_Oles many sources have disappeared over time but here is some interesting reading that delve into historical details, tracing the development of various things from their early years up to 2005.
Some things that appear completely illogical from today's perspective on social networks made complete sense back then.
https://ishii.de/kei/codegovernance/Ishii2005-CodeGovernance.pdf
@Mumbly Thanks for the Code Governance link! Fascinating to read! The link goes to a PhD thesis written by Kei Ishi in 2005:
Here below are a few quotes from Dr. Ishi's analysis of The Great Split, pages 163-164 of the pdf linked by @Mumbly:
From page 167:
From page 153, the IRC server's configuration line to Quarantine the eris Anet server is a canonical example of "code governance."
There exists a symmetry in the English language uses of the word "code" between computer code as rules for governance, as in the linked thesis, and the set of rules for social governance which literally is also called "code," as in "United States Code."
Do Usenet's 1994 Eternal September "increase in low-quality posts" and The Great IRC Split of 1996 mark the beginning of and show the reason for the "Walled Gardens" about which so many of us complain nowadays?
Wikipedia says, "Initially, most IRC servers formed a single IRC network, to which new servers could join without restriction, but this was soon abused by people who set up servers to sabotage other users, channels, or servers. In August 1990, the server eris.berkeley.edu remained the only one to allow anyone to connect to the servers." Was "The Great Split" the internet's initial lesson about "Why We Can't Have Nice Things?"
Thanks again @Mumbly!
Yes. I also believe it was the first lesson about how we can't have nice things.
Humans are creatures of deep emotions aspiring to infinity. When conflicts and animosities come into play, rationality goes out the window to not accept defeat or undermining or loss, while emotions take control. This is why IRC attracted DDoS in the past and providers suffered, as people were fighting one another escalating things over petty talk.
As a personal note: sometimes I like to think of ourselves as monkeys in banana trees, fighting over bananas even though there are plenty bananas everywhere in the forest. As we get more technologically advanced weapons, we might burn down the whole forest, just to prove we have the rights and arguments to control bananas. Proof: more than 13.000 nukes available.
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Small edit.
Don't mix the early separation of chaotic Anet and Eris-Free Network in 1990 (which was essentially just cleaning up a mess) with the later event known as "The Great Split", which occurred in 1996, resulting in EFnet and IRCnet becoming two separate networks.