Are LES Provider Offers Unsubstainable ?
This discussion was created from comments split from: €9/YEAR - 2C/2G/20G/250M SPECIAL DEAL!.
I have been spending a bit of time over the last couple months contacting providers with the objective of getting them to post more good offers on LES. This has met with some resistance from providers because providing special offers requires time and effort on their part. IE:
But over all the response has been positive with both old and new providers increasing to some degree the frequency of offers threads, and IMO leading to some better offers. But now I am seeing a few members going around saying the offers are unsustainable or spam offers in offer threads. Making it seem that I am working at cross purposes to what the community envisions.
So I figure it is a good time to have a community discussion on the subject.
Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?
Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?
If more tech discussions or how to's are what you want. What do you feel stops you from having them now ?
Members that write decent how to articles on LES get a special place it my
FrankZ
I have been spending a bit of time over the last couple months contacting providers with the objective of getting them to post more good offers on LES. This has met with some resistance from providers because providing special offers requires time and effort on their part. IE:
Running offer threads (including needing to generate promo codes, and ensuing our backend infrastructure can handle a potential surge in orders) is quite time consuming and we simply don't have the man-hours to invest right now.
Almost nobody is nor was interested in our services... Therefore we have decided not to make any offers as it is worthless to be honest. Hope that you understand us.
But over all the response has been positive with both old and new providers increasing to some degree the frequency of offers threads, and IMO leading to some better offers. But now I am seeing a few members going around saying the offers are unsustainable or spam offers in offer threads. Making it seem that I am working at cross purposes to what the community envisions.
So I figure it is a good time to have a community discussion on the subject.
Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?
Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?
If more tech discussions or how to's are what you want. What do you feel stops you from having them now ?
Members that write decent how to articles on LES get a special place it my
FrankZ
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- Are LES Provider Offers Unsubstainable ?29 votes
- Yes20.69%
- No10.34%
- Maybe55.17%
- I don't care13.79%
- Do you want to see more or less offer on LES29 votes
- More68.97%
- Less0.00%
- It's fine as it is3.45%
- Debian please27.59%
Comments
It's more like BEST UNSUSTAINABLE DEALZ.
This title would be shared between you and VirBot.
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Not that bad!
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I would believe your point in the past, but now as dedipath has passed away and most vir's VPS in US are offline, and every email only mentioned how sad or grievous the providers were without mentioning refund.
I'm seriously considering payments with charge back in the future, especially to those low-end ones.
MicroLXC is lovable.
@bliss
There has been a saying around low end for a long time.
Pick two of the three options below:
1, Cheap
2. Fast
3. Good
Companies come and go all the time, and not just hosting providers, it is part of life. I am only saying this because you seem quite disillusioned lately. Try to cheer up, life is too long a time to be unhappy.
@bliss
You have always have the Yeti to come beat up on, so don't fret so much.
The Yeti has left the building.
There's ONLY two notable deals here on les that aren't spam and/or isn't in moderate to high chance to close down soon
Disillusioned is not the same as realism, Both are attainable without it affecting his/her personal happiness in life.... does affect the community in its little microcosm though!
That does not always apply, I got a few Ryzen Machines with SSD/NVMe for 10-12€/y.
They have been solid, It depends what you buy and from who.
Is 9€/y sustainable? I have Deals where I pay less, did they deadpool yet? No.
Do they include IPv4? Yes.
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Great post.
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I also have many really great deals from multiple providers that have been around for years. So I totally agree with your premise that there are diamonds to be found at low end providers, but I also am not that surprised, or disappointed, if on occasion it does not work out that way. I just move on, and start looking for the next diamond. Maybe it's just me, but finding those diamonds makes it worth sifting through some slag.
Most of the offers I've seen on LES that I'd be interested in are duplicated on LET or WHT. Yes, that means the LES unique offers have rarely been appealing to me. On the other hand, once or twice, when the same offer has been elsewhere and the link or promo code was LES-specific I have used it so the provider would know I saw it here. At one time I'd have been interested in Virmach offers, but that hasn't panned out lately. This place ranks behind LET and WHT for offers generally in my experience. I mainly find myself mainly here for tech discussion and Virmach state-of-affairs until my contracts expire.
Yes to tech, personally not very interested in "fun shit posting". I prefer the reduced drama, rants, and rage fights here compared to LET.
Reading how to's generally not of interest to me, but I could imagine they might be to some. No blockers to having tech discussions currently. Seems fine in that regard.
Hope that helps, just one person's perspective.
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Thanks @jtk that was the kind of response I was hoping for.
I'm just trying to understand why people are on LES, and where to focus my effort so it's in the right direction with what members are looking for here.
All I can say is once we've been asked to price-match a few dozen Dedipath offers, I was completely blown away by what they were selling and for how much. They're so far out of the realm of possibility that I don't even counter those requests. It's flat out "No, we can't do that.". I think if anyone actually saw the scale of this prior, deadpool incoming would not have been as much of a surprise.
Regarding unsustainable deals I do think its very provider-specific. I know the 8.69/19.69 non-IPv4 deal we have was called sus on OGF, but it's pretty straightforward easy math given the whole picture (infrastructure, hardware on hand, and complete business model).
Few LES-only deals we've done somewhat recently performed well. I have tried to give metrics to some other providers. It's easy to 'default' to LET as a provider because you are so busy and to come up with a good sales thread takes additional effort. It is true that the traffic is lower, so if you're tossing a decent but not-dedipath-tier offer out you are likely to default to the most eyeballs per post forum.
That being said, the space absolutely needs redundancy (my opinion) so I've been making an effort to run some LES-only true exclusives (while restocking popular past ones) and planning a few more out now that we've exhausted the pre-planned sales events.
provider hat off... could not agree more with this take. I know some prefer the drama, rage, and constant same-joke trolling but it does get old/predictable.
Personally, I also like a bit more of the community aspect and something besides only spam-offer posts (like mine). Unfortunately, it's nearly becoming a must if you want your thread to have any traction (at least on OGF) otherwise you'll be off the front page before half the world wakes up. The LES exclusives is a good step towards offering providers visibility without being forced into spam-tactics, even if tongue-in-cheek.
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*Obligatory - this rant is not directly aimed at you directly, just the points you bought up! *
The other side of the coin, most people I speak to privately, refer to hosts that engage in as the spamming guy on LE* or some other insult along those lines, they've long forgotten the service as they actively ignore the spam ones! Imo good posts get interaction without all the nonsense. Listing an offer, it's still there in search aswell, seeing the same post more often is not something that'd make me buy, A lot will just scroll on past, because it's the same incessant nonsense over and over again so it's whatever you find works, but I'll avoid a provider based upon the way they conduct themselves in a forum, I know others do too! My advice is don't be the Raid: shadow legends of LES that people roll their eyes at and skip past!
With the exception of two hosts, I marvel at how they stay in business and religiously watch their posts - But I'd never even be tempted to buy something from them, no matter the price!
One further note, is when you started I signed up...... be that guy... not the double bandwidth dipping daddy of a market of cheap skates
I am currently watching more than two. I am awaiting to see how their strategies play out. One i was watching did exactly as I expected. Time shall tell on the others.
The Yeti has left the building.
Haha, yeah there's a lot more that will fail imo - I only bother watching the worst two just out of morbid curiosity! There's probably only two providers here I'd gamble on being around long term, there's a few I hope are and the rest.... well..... that's the lowend market for you 😝
Problem appears when deals are unsustainable and there is no payment which allows refunds. That smells fishy.
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>
Not really, just look for a trustable provider. (always read contract terms)
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Those are all good points. I would like to further clarify: I've found anything LES-specific hasn't needed spam and doesn't have issues with visibility/interactions in the same way--critiques were mostly pointed at current state OGF. I was hoping a giveaway w/some effort required and laughs (@Not_Oles stuff) would be better than literal empty bumps but in the end it's still the same approach and behavior. Cue slippery slope. Always valuable to get feedback and have a moment of introspection, thank you.
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Personally I only use providers who allow me to pay with PayPal. Although I have only issued a dispute one time in the last ten years. That was HostDoc when he deadpooled three days after I bought a big yearly VM.
That being said, given the expectations of some customers regarding LE products I can understand why some providers may not want to use services where they get a $30 charge back fee on a $10 yearly VPS because the customer does not understand why they cannot use 100% of the CPU all the time for transcoding.
IMO there are basicly three types of providers that make lowend offers.
New small providers just starting out who are willing to work for free to get a foot into the market, hoping that they will be able to raise prices and make some money later.
Older more established providers who make their money in a higher end market, who make low end offers on old equipment as a way of giving back to society or a hand up to the people from very low income countries. In other words charity. They back out of doing this when the thing they though was helping people stops being appreciated, or becomes too much work, or affects their real money making business.
Masochist, I would include providers like VirMach in this category. These are providers that have a strong belief system, are extremely tenacious, and who will do whatever it takes to overcome any obstacle in their path, even if these obstacles are of their own making. Long after most of us would have thrown in the towel, they still keep going.
The mythical low end provider that makes a living by selling 2 core, 2GB, 50GB NVMe, unlimited transfer Vms for $10 or $15 a year. Has the latest hardware, does not oversell, has great customer service, and does not mind customers wanting refunds whenever they feel the provider's service does not live up to the customers standards.
I know I said above there was only three, and then listed four. That is because the fourth one, in my opinion, does not really exist. Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I surely would not mind if someone was to convince me otherwise.
Business is not a charity so ya this will most likely not exists.
This thread reminds me of the time where I talk to providers asking for deals during Black Friday, sometimes I even worried for the providers providing unsustainable deals...
食之无味 弃之可惜 - Too arduous to relish, too wasteful to discard.
I think there are many small providers here looking to sell on LES as a main business.
The fact is that this is not always sustainable.
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These can unironically describe the four stages of VirMach if you add in the other non-low end side of it. #1 we were starting out and rather than raising prices we just did #2 which was us making a lot of money on higher end market except we still kept it on old equipment, there was no reason for us to keep offering specials and we probably cut back on it but it was too much fun providing cheap services for this market. #3 has been the last couple years. Let's see if we ever achieve #4 mythical status or if we cycle back to #2 instead.
It's even funnier if you think about it, at some point we were #2 and because I did not follow the instructions on #2 we created our own #3 masochist sub-category.
There has never been a better, more fun, gimmick than Virbot. A few years ago I remember my wife would just watch me follow the VirBot Black Friday thread all the while smiling and shaking her head. I for one was made very happy by your choice to do it when you no longer needed to. Of course I doubt that my happiness can make up for the misery that choice caused you afterward.
No, its not the payment method itself.
A lot of scams happen with CC and PP too, after 180 days, we seen those.
The payment methods a provider accepts though, could indicate that such problem could appear later on.
But I think the key point here, is still, where you buy from and what.
The way you pay, plays not the biggest role, at least in my opinion.
There are legit reasons, to use crypto or other methods, to reduce gateway payment fees etc.
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You are right. Payment is not the most important aspect. Personally I like to see more options, as many options as possible.
I was just indicating that an unsustainable offer combined with limited payment options (only the ones which do not allow refunds), starts to trigger a smell on my nose. Other people might have different opinions and different levels of trust, therefore I respect their ways; but in my case I have seen providers taking money with tempting offers and closing business later, and I have seen people abusing or people not reading the terms and conditions and yet buying from fear of missing out. In the end some cases tend to become popcorn dramas, while other scenarios fade away as people tend to forgive or forget.
I wish good luck to all providers with very low offers; except the ones trying to "pump and dump" some hosting brand.
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I'm surprised that nobody pointed out that I misspelled "unsustainable", in both the title and the OP.
I'm looking at you @AlwaysSkint
(It's too late to fix it now or the poll will get messed up.)
( chuckle ) Skimmed the title and had an opinion on it so it never passed through the filter.
"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." -- Obi Wan Kenobi
I guess anything longer than 10 characters is hard. Like Congratulesions
食之无味 弃之可惜 - Too arduous to relish, too wasteful to discard.
"Men trust their ears less than their eyes" --- Herodotus
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Got me: epic fail! :'(
In stasis until the shitposting stops/abates.
Than=compare;then=sequence:brought=bring;bought=buy:staffs=pile of sticks:informations/infos=no plural.
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@FrankZ Your investment of time for the benefit of LES is really, really appreciated!
LES is great! There is no reason why we can't have EVERYTHING: great offers, great tech discussions, great how-to posts, plus great general fun posts!
For tech discussions, recently I've asked about how and when the FILE type was integrated into the C programming language. I quoted the GNU libc manual. I mentioned the B programming language. Another topic I mentioned recently was how the mainstream "Linus" Linux kernel gets imported into various GNU/Linux distributions. I mentioned the Koji build platform that Fedora uses. These topics didn't generate much response. What stops me from trying to start more tech discussions is my perception that people here have different tech interests and so might not especially care to participate in discussions I start.
I am slow about writing, so how-tos take a long time. If I write a how-to post, it takes a couple or three days to research and test it, then a couple or three days to make screenshots, write it, proofread, retest, adjust, do more research, rewrite, show to people involved, analyze their comments, make more adjustments, etc.
The high point of my enthusiasm in how-to writing usually seems to be the moment the post is finished. Both here and at OGF there sometimes is an additional, multiple day gap between submission and publication. I understand that the staff here and there need time to do their jobs well. Nevertheless, I think it would help motivate writers if a way could be found to decrease the time between submission and publication.
Staff that cares as much as you and Mason and Relja get a special place in my
Thank you all again so much!
Tom
Thank you for your kind words regarding the staff here at LES. I have never previously had the pleasure of working with such a great group of guys. From my perspective it has been like a breath of fresh air.
I agree, and hope most other members do too.
Although I did comment in your "FILE" thread, most of the time your tech discussions are over my head. I do read them and find them enjoyable, it is just not something that I feel that I am knowledgeable enough to comment on. Maybe others feel the same way, and just because there are not a lot of comments in these threads does not mean that people are not reading and gaining something from them.
I do understand how much time and effort goes into writing a good how to or article. People who make the effort to do this show that they care about the community. I recognize this, and my hope is that others will join in this process because as the old saying goes, many hands make light work.
Thank you for pointing this out. It was something I had not considered before.
This made me chuckle, and put a smile on my face.
Much appreciated at the time, and also now.
Most of my tech discussions are over my head too!
Thanks!
I am so, so familiar with this feeling. Exactly as you describe.
Thanks for your always very kind words!
I think LES deals are unsustainable for most of the NEW Providers, old providers who have tons of IP it's a different story.
Lets run some numbers:
These days anybody can get a dedicated server for around $50 per month or even less, that can act as a low end VPS Node, may or may not have RAID, but still the client does not know about it.
Usually these servers comes with around 64GB RAM and 1G Port speed
So if a provider is selling VPS with 1G RAM they can easily sell about 50-60 VPS per server, unless they want to oversell
So if they sell a VPS for $12/yr and if they make the server full or sell 50-60 VPS then they reach breakeven (not yet included a lot of other expenses)
So now if they do it for $9 per year they are selling it at a loss and makes it unsustainable.
Now lets talk about other expenses.
Lets say the VPS comes with 1 IPv4 IP, if you get it from IPXO etc... you may get it for about 0.4-5 per IP, but then again you need to pay atleast for a /24 so unless you have about 5 nodes, it's just not possible to get these IP
And if you buy IP from your server provider, they all charge atleast $1 per IP (ofcourse there are few exceptions), so if you take $50 server with atleast 50 IP to sell 50 VPS, you are paying $100 per month
So now the basic cost of VPS is $2 per month for the provider
WAIT ... what about payment processor charges ?
That again varies, but if we assume it 4% ? then even it adds it to expenses
Above all of it you need to even count WHMCS or billing software license fees, support team if you have any
So these LES offers are not really sustainable
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Yeah, I did want to point our it wasn't directly aimed at you! More the mindset of incessant spamming - it's just a competition between spammy providers muddying the feed like LET - LES is much better in that regard!
You're correct, four should have been scammed however
They are not mythical, but just some REAL SUMMER HOST, who do makes a living out it every summer
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This is where it went wrong.
The VPS shall come with:
Any customer who wants dedicated IPv4 can either:
You must ensure IPv6 is fully working.
Any outage of the IPv6 is considered a full outage and subject to SLA credits.
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This is actually not a bad idea.
Those who wants internet to "just work" won't care if the IP is shared or not.
Those who care can go buy their own IP.
And /56 v6 has more IPs than you need.
I would say even /60 is good enough.
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LES as a product segment strikes me as fundamentally unsustainable. Not commercially necessarily...mean that more big picture. Often a 1 man band and people get bored/sick/swamped/depressed/life happens. They're just humans after all.
So my starting position is assuming the provider will go under & it's a question of whether it'll be online long enough for the math to work out vs say Do/vultr.
I doubt LES offers makes a difference to the above dynamic either way.