Pinging fsn.metalvps.com [88.198.14.252] with 32 bytes of data:
Request timed out.
Reply from 88.198.14.252: bytes=32 time=267ms TTL=51
Reply from 88.198.14.252: bytes=32 time=287ms TTL=51
Reply from 88.198.14.252: bytes=32 time=265ms TTL=51
Ping statistics for 88.198.14.252:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 3, Lost = 1 (25% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 265ms, Maximum = 287ms, Average = 273ms
Actually, I have to turn on VPN to use ping. If I don't turn on VPN, it will be like this:
Pinging fsn.metalvps.com [88.198.14.252] with 32 bytes of data:
Request timed out.
Reply from 88.198.14.252: bytes=32 time=267ms TTL=51
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Ping statistics for 88.198.14.252: Packets:
Sent = 4, Received = 1, Lost = 3 (75% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 267ms, Maximum = 267ms, Average = 267ms
Maybe the latency is okay compared to yours, but the packet loss is too high.(x_x)
About the VPNs can i ask something?
i've been used China's VMs and i used a tool called V2rayN to bypass The Great Wall, it's super slow and high laterncy network, so i wonder
Are you using V2rayN,if Yes where you got the file from because you in china while you can't connect to outside the internet
What VPN you are using if you don't use V2rayN
Google is blocked in China, is OpenAI(ChatGPT) blocked too
is Bypass the firewall illegal?
i've been used China's VMs and i used a tool called V2rayN to bypass The Great Wall, it's super slow and high laterncy network, so i wonder
Are you using V2rayN,if Yes where you got the file from because you in china while you can't connect to outside the internet
What VPN you are using if you don't use V2rayN
Google is blocked in China, is OpenAI(ChatGPT) blocked too
is Bypass the firewall illegal?
Thanks for asking these questions, @dinopotato! I also wonder about these questions. I wonder about the effectiveness of the firewall because it seems that many, many people bypass it. Please let me add my additional question, "Is the Great Firewall effective?"
@FrankZ If you are not too busy, maybe @dinopotato's question and my reply with an additional question plus additional replies should be split into a new Great Firewall thread? Thanks either way!
Here is my understanding on the situation. I have never lived for an extended period in China so take it with some salt.
Bypassing the GFW is illegal without a permit. A permit is only given to large international firms (or people with special connections) with a hefty fee. They usually get whitelisted in the edge router and can use the Internet like everybody else.
That leaves the average Xiaoming.
Ever since the GFW is setup, there has been a technological cat and mouse game between the GFW and the average Xiaoming.
Eventually the government gave up since they are not successful in reverse engineering modern protocols like shadowsocks, v2ray, and wireguard. They now use organizational tactics like fining people using "accelerators" and jailing people who hosts websites teaching others how to bypass the GFW. The latest tactic though, is peer pressuring everyone to install an anti-phishing app which not only flags potentially phishing apps but also apps related to cryptocurrency, VPN and other apps conducting activities illegal in China.
But still, people who desire to access the "outer" Internet find ways to do so.
Bypassing ANY country firewall is illegal and depending on the laws, you may face a fine or jail time.
Does that mean you should stop? Yes, you should not break the law of the country you are residing in. If you do not like the law, gather money and move to a different country. That's the only legal way.
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
It is true. When one goes to a country, one must respect that law and culture. The Great Firewall is created by the legislation of China, it is part of China, and it must be respected by the citizens and visitors of China. If one bypasses it, then this is a breach of law.
Even though a person coming from a liberal country with democracy and with freedom of speech, may not care about The Great Firewall, the law must be respected.
Even though a person living in China wants the freedom of liberal democracy, the law must be obeyed. As always in history when populations were strangled, the people have the right to unite, rise up, and start a civil war or revolution which will change the regime into something else, with new laws and new leaders (which might not become greedy and repeat history again and again).
@root said:
As always in history when populations were strangled, the people have the right to unite, rise up, and start a civil war or revolution which will change the regime into something else, with new laws and new leaders
Ya, no, that's not happening.
In Singapore, it is illegal to even hold a protest or demonstration.
As for US, the last time they rose up and tried starting a civil war was when Trump lost the votes and his supporters attacked the white house...
In China, lets just say you may disappear if you try any of that...
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
@root said:
As always in history when populations were strangled, the people have the right to unite, rise up, and start a civil war or revolution which will change the regime into something else, with new laws and new leaders
Ya, no, that's not happening.
In Singapore, it is illegal to even hold a protest or demonstration.
As for US, the last time they rose up and tried starting a civil war was when Trump lost the votes and his supporters attacked the white house...
In China, lets just say you may disappear if you try any of that...
You are right. But I honestly wish to avoid being pessimistic. If we combine what you say with electricity going extremely expensive, with politics of manipulation through money, and with investments in artificial intelligence, then we are all doomed to become slaves of elite families and corporations.
Even though nowadays populations worldwide seem to be treated like sheep and cattle to be milked and used, I merely wish to keep a glimpse of hope that populations can still overthrow regimes as it was in our human history.
@root said:
then we are all doomed to become slaves of elite families and corporations.
Erm... we already are. I mean you are living in a country (any) ruled by a group of people who needs money to run the country and keep order. The money comes from tax, which is only generated when money transfers hands. The largest tax payers are the big corporations (not their CEO or owners, but the business itself). Large business generates money that runs your country. They have huge sway over what goes on in the country. Since you are following the rules of the country, you are already following laws that benefit those money makers.
@root said:
Even though nowadays populations worldwide seem to be treated like sheep and cattle to be milked and used, I merely wish to keep a glimpse of hope that populations can still overthrow regimes as it was in our human history.
Not anymore. Previously they lacked information and the means to monitor people's behavior. Technology has come up to where people willingly share their personal details on social media for "popularity" and thereby giving access to all sorts of companies insights into what they are up to. If you even start planning a civil war, well, lets just way a aluminum foil hat will not help.
If you want to live peacefully, just follow the rules. The are carefully maintained to not be harsh enough to cause general unrest. As long as only minority group are unhappy, it does not matter.
If the general populaces starts to get unhappy, government will hold events and raise base salary to combat the unrest. So it is a carefully maintained balance that will be maintained a long time to come.
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
I believe Chinese government has found a way to detect Shadowsocks.
I also heard from my friend that if an IP has a lot of traffic or long lasting connections, then this IP will be blocked by the firewall.
@dwight said:
I believe Chinese government has found a way to detect Shadowsocks.
I also heard from my friend that if an IP has a lot of traffic or long lasting connections, then this IP will be blocked by the firewall.
They can detect but they cannot decrypt and do deep packet inspection like they did with IPSEC type VPN.
They can only block the IP.
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
it depends, currently there are no legal about bypassing firewalls,but you can get caught as "breaking computer",also some place just simply arrest and warn you for fines or reach metrics
basically most police call you because you send something political on social media, but most of Chinese bypassing GFW just for porns,lmao
ah,reply to wrong person i think @dinopotato here you are
@somik said: The largest tax payers are the big corporations (not their CEO or owners, but the business itself). Large business generates money that runs your country.
What country do you live in? That's the way it's supposed to work but rarely the way it does work from my experience.
it depends, currently there are no legal about bypassing firewalls,but you can get caught as "breaking computer",also some place just simply arrest and warn you for fines or reach metrics
basically most police call you because you send something political on social media, but most of Chinese bypassing GFW just for porns,lmao
ah,reply to wrong person i think @dinopotato here you are
Hi,i just wonder about why china don't give freedom about the internet, i just wondering
@Encoders said:
can we move on to technical discussion please? these political discussion yadda yadda can have their own offtopic thread
True. But you see, people try to value privacy precisely due to political aspects. Many people start focusing on VPNs simply because they don't trust the governments and corporations anymore. In an utopia world where people would be happy and minding their own lives in peace, love and harmony for one another, there would be no need for VPNs and anonymity and protests.
But unfortunately governments want to impose laws and monitor their populations like slaves, while people can't trust their governments precisely because politicians monitor their population, cling to power, and shake hands with rich entities. This is why VPNs were created; and this is why VPNs became illegal in some countries.
With this in mind now comes the technical aspect, because some people want a VPN which can simply hide their IP for downloading something; while others simply want to hide from government controls and access web freely, like others do, just to stay informed (away from propaganda and agendas). It's a battle, or better yet a struggle for people to have some sense of freedom. There is a perverse paradox here: the more people want anonymity, the more governments and corporations start thinking their slaves are up to no good; and the more governments create laws to hinder freedom, the more consumers tend to desire anonymity. And we just started to scratch the surface in this paradox, as more protocols for VPNs will likely be developed.
The end is nigh, one might say. But honestly I hope humanity will become more beautiful and more good to realise that greed and power are not the way to explore an infinite universe (since infinite greed could drive humanity crazy). I do not want to derail this thread which many people see as a solution for their firewall. But my opinion is that the problem is not with The Great Firewall; the problem is with the minds who thought of creating it and maintaining it in the first place - minds which are evil for power, greed, control, mistrust and lack of love - this is the underlying problem which really needs to be addressed, and nobody knows how this can be done diplomatically, without triggering security laws.
Meanwhile, back on topic, I recommend: Shadowsocks, Wireguard (some public VPN providers have wireguard but their servers are marked by GFW), or Tor Project with a hidden bridge.
From providers perspective, I recommend the cheapest VPS for VPN, because once the GFW blocks the IP, one can simply cancel the machine and deploy another server with a different IP.
I don't have a gif, but I do have a nice short film somewhat related. Enjoy.
@somik said: The largest tax payers are the big corporations (not their CEO or owners, but the business itself). Large business generates money that runs your country.
What country do you live in? That's the way it's supposed to work but rarely the way it does work from my experience.
Singapore. The whole country is just one big corporation.
@somik said: I did not think about that... F**K! I'll need to get a offline copy of everything (google translate, google maps, etc.) before I go...
maybe just get a proper VPN
some rumor said government give some VPN provider whitelist since foreign business needs vpn
btw, guys, foreign vistors use VPN isn't illegal, police only check local residents lol
GFW is known to not interfere with international roaming of foreign carriers (Google Fi, for instance. Google for evidences from actual users). Whether unencrypted data on such links are monitored is anyone's guess. Use VPN etc. if this troubles you.
If you choose to use local WIFI/ethernet in mainland, you are going through GFW. You have to use VPN etc. to get 'full' internet access. Well known and commonly used VPN providers may or may not work (stably). Personal VPN-like service may or may not work (stably). GFW is a huge blackbox.
Big (international) companies are a different story. Commercial service with less restrictions can be openly bought from providers for 'legal' uses.
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There're only a few young people in China who's able to bypass GFW. Although it looks a large group of crossers, it is because people who focuses on these technologies / VPN / VPS gather in specific communities.
Personal usage of V2ray / Shadowsocks won't be punished by Chinese government, although bypass GFW is illegal indeed. They only arrest those who developed software like V2ray / Shadowsocks, who taught others how to use VPN or who provide public VPN to others.
@ccc said:
There're only a few young people in China who's able to bypass GFW. Although it looks a large group of crossers, it is because people who focuses on these technologies / VPN / VPS gather in specific communities.
Ofcourse, we dont expect regular non-tech people to be using VPNs! I mean I know some who cant even use a smartphone properly and only can use facebook and whatsapp.
@ccc said:
Personal usage of V2ray / Shadowsocks won't be punished by Chinese government, although bypass GFW is illegal indeed.
That's cause it doesn't make sense to go after everyone bypassing in monetary terms. Better to go after the high profile ones like influencers as a "warning" to the rest of the people.
@ccc said:
They only arrest those who developed software like V2ray / Shadowsocks, who taught others how to use VPN or who provide public VPN to others.
Thats cause they are enabling others to bypass the law. So it makes sense to go after them. And since they are also making money off it, the government can impose fines and recover some of the money spent finding the "criminal".
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
If the has has a lot of traffic, it'll be blocked; regardless what protocol you are using; e.g., shadowsocks, wg, etc. Thus, wg and shadowsocks are not perfect.
@dinopotato said:
Hi,i just wonder about why china don't give freedom about the internet, i just wondering
Today there is no free internet. In US you can't upload anything that violates DMCA. US also seized Iran's domains like presstv.com . In Korea I believe they've banned most pr0n websites. Most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons.
Today there is no free internet. In US you can't upload anything that violates DMCA. US also seized Iran's domains like presstv.com . In Korea I believe they've banned most pr0n websites. Most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons.
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
If the has has a lot of traffic, it'll be blocked; regardless what protocol you are using; e.g., shadowsocks, wg, etc. Thus, wg and shadowsocks are not perfect.
Only if you run an "airport", or use it to download constantly.
Nothing is perfect, and wg and ss has severely affected the GFW's ability to do packet inspection, that's why they switched to other tactics.
You know there's a difference between example and Slippery Slope Fallacy, right?
I made the claim "there is no free internet" first, and then I gave two examples. It's not the case that I use two examples to conclude "there is no free internet." I can give you more examples; for instance, no country in this world allows child p0rn.
Also this is not Whataboutism. Again they are examples to support the claim "there is no free internet." I didn't use internet censorship in the US or other countries to support the claim that internet censorship in China is right. In fact I think China's censorship is too strict.
I have stated clearly "most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons." This is my answer to the question "why china don't give freedom about the internet"
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
If the has has a lot of traffic, it'll be blocked; regardless what protocol you are using; e.g., shadowsocks, wg, etc. Thus, wg and shadowsocks are not perfect.
Makes sense. If a regular IP hosting normal content suddenly starts getting a lot of traffic, there is definitely something shady going on...
@dinopotato said:
Hi,i just wonder about why china don't give freedom about the internet, i just wondering
Today there is no free internet. In US you can't upload anything that violates DMCA. US also seized Iran's domains like presstv.com . In Korea I believe they've banned most pr0n websites. Most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
I agree about all country can be ban/not allow killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc., but why china can ban Google and Social media?, also in some router can be have Filtering Adult Content for Kids about these.
I don't agree about china block Google, Google also have safe search setting, it's can be turn on
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
I agree about all country can be ban/not allow killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc., but why china can ban Google and Social media?, also in some router can be have Filtering Adult Content for Kids about these.
I don't agree about china block Google, Google also have safe search setting, it's can be turn on
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Because google doesn't follow china Gov censor recommend. It only follows the US Gov.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
@ccc said:
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Use outlook / live.com for e-mail.
Use baidu maps for getting around. Google maps works in China, but due to GPS reasons, all the maps are about 100m wrong.
Realise that social media is for dweebs and you don't need it anyway.
Install wechat on your phone - you can always add people on there (as everyone uses it) and use its inbuilt message translation for complicated conversations.
Learn some basic phrases before you go and take a calculator for price negotiations. This is really useful to help you understand the price they are saying.
If you don't want to learn Chinese, visit Shanghai where many people manage to live for years without any attempt to learn.
@root said:
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
If you want your data to be shared by the governments AND the top companies AND/OR anyone who has money to pay, follow US.
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it. Afterall, ignorance is bliss...
@ccc said:
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Use outlook / live.com for e-mail.
Use baidu maps for getting around. Google maps works in China, but due to GPS reasons, all the maps are about 100m wrong.
Realise that social media is for dweebs and you don't need it anyway.
Install wechat on your phone - you can always add people on there (as everyone uses it) and use its inbuilt message translation for complicated conversations.
Learn some basic phrases before you go and take a calculator for price negotiations. This is really useful to help you understand the price they are saying.
If you don't want to learn Chinese, visit Shanghai where many people manage to live for years without any attempt to learn.
Wechat is also used for payments. Baidu for video sharing. And you can ofcourse hire translators/guides at a very cheap price when you go over.
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
Google search was blocked since 2014 because Google couldn't accommodate requests from Chinese government. I've heard part of the reason is that Google needs a court order to remove content; but in China they get a lot of requests from the communist party, not from the court. China has a different political system and some rules won't apply there...
social media platforms like twitter and facebook were blocked for inciting the 2009 Urumuqi riots in Xinjiang (which resulting in about 200 deaths and over one thousand injuries) and have not been unblocked.
These tech giants tried to re-enter China with censored version of their products, but they never made it. I guess it's because Chinese government wants to promote Chinese substitutes like Weibo and Baidu
Google search was blocked since 2014 because Google couldn't accommodate requests from Chinese government. I've heard part of the reason is that Google needs a court order to remove content; but in China they get a lot of requests from the communist party, not from the court. China has a different political system and some rules won't apply there...
social media platforms like twitter and facebook were blocked for inciting the 2009 Urumuqi riots in Xinjiang (which resulting in about 200 deaths and over one thousand injuries) and have not been unblocked.
These tech giants tried to re-enter China with censored version of their products, but they never made it. I guess it's because Chinese government wants to promote Chinese substitutes like Weibo and Baidu
Better way for go to china without google traslate is learn chiniese
@root said:
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
You are partially right. The censoring is done to a certain degree; the disregard for data privacy is only on top levels. We know it, we adapted to it, and it is not that bad once you realise it. There are limitations to what government can do: look at protest in France as an example.
If you want your data to be shared by the governments AND the top companies AND/OR anyone who has money to pay, follow US.
Yet China is also ruled by corporations who have money to pay. They get the best internet, and uncensored.
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
True, but partially; because government of China is also ruled behind it by the rich.
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it.
Yeah, right. They are happy trying to access porn like others do. And while they bypass the firewall, they totally care for their privacy.
Afterall, ignorance is bliss...
Let's not be hypocritical. There is no perfect system. After thousands of years of evolution we still have not managed to eliminate greed through any political system. If you consider yourself a perfect leader to rule the world, then I am ignorant indeed.
"In times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers." - history taught us this much.
@root said:
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
You are partially right. The censoring is done to a certain degree; the disregard for data privacy is only on top levels. We know it, we adapted to it, and it is not that bad once you realise it. There are limitations to what government can do: look at protest in France as an example.
Yes, and similarly, the china's populas accepted and adapted to their "normal" as well.
@somik said:
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
True, but partially; because government of China is also ruled behind it by the rich.
I'll quote myself here as a response:
Erm... we already are. I mean you are living in a country (any) ruled by a group of people who needs money to run the country and keep order. The money comes from tax, which is only generated when money transfers hands. The largest tax payers are the big corporations (not their CEO or owners, but the business itself). Large business generates money that runs your country. They have huge sway over what goes on in the country. Since you are following the rules of the country, you are already following laws that benefit those money makers.
@somik said:
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it.
Yeah, right. They are happy trying to access porn like others do. And while they bypass the firewall, they totally care for their privacy.
If I didn't know of the outside world, only living in my small bubble, i would be happier. I wont compare what I have vs what others have. I wont care which government is doing what for it's people, I wont care which two countries are at war. So I would be happier. Ofcourse it would be different for others, but that's just what I feel about it.
Let's not be hypocritical. There is no perfect system. After thousands of years of evolution we still have not managed to eliminate greed through any political system. If you consider yourself a perfect leader to rule the world, then I am ignorant indeed.
"In times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers." - history taught us this much.
Yet, our rulers are always first to build barriers. Trumps "mexican wall", china's "firewall", etc. The issue is that we will always vote for the foolish, never the wise...
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
This is generally hard for foreigners now, unless you have a Z (work) visa.
To fund wechat wallet, you either need to link it to a Chinese bank account or receive a red packet. However, about 4 years ago, they massively tightened this up and now you can only receive a red packet if you also have a linked bank account. Opening a bank account is generally difficult for foreigners now, typically you need a rental contract, a form from the local PSB to show you're registered as living there, and a suitable visa. I tried quite a few different banks in 2018, and didn't succeed in opening an account at all. Prior to 2017 it was pretty easy to open a bank account even with an L (tourist) visa.
Alipay is supposed to be the best alternative for foreigners as it apparently allows linking a foreign credit card to it. I never managed to get it to work though, but I've heard from others who succeeded.
This is generally hard for foreigners now, unless you have a Z (work) visa.
To fund wechat wallet, you either need to link it to a Chinese bank account or receive a red packet. However, about 4 years ago, they massively tightened this up and now you can only receive a red packet if you also have a linked bank account. Opening a bank account is generally difficult for foreigners now, typically you need a rental contract, a form from the local PSB to show you're registered as living there, and a suitable visa. I tried quite a few different banks in 2018, and didn't succeed in opening an account at all. Prior to 2017 it was pretty easy to open a bank account even with an L (tourist) visa.
Alipay is supposed to be the best alternative for foreigners as it apparently allows linking a foreign credit card to it. I never managed to get it to work though, but I've heard from others who succeeded.
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
I also saw Alipay in SG but never used it. So dunno much about it. I generally use the local bank payment method, "PayLah!"
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
@somik said:
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
Yeah, it's the same in China. Almost everyone accepts Wechat Pay and maybe half of retailers also accept Alipay.
My point is that as a foreigner, it's next to impossible to open a local bank account without a Z visa, and as such getting money into your Wechat Wallet is impossible. There are some limited exceptions, e.g. I could top up my mobile phone credit using Wechat Pay and an attached foreign credit card, but in general Wechat payments come from your wallet, for which you need an attached local bank.
I also saw Alipay in SG but never used it. So dunno much about it. I generally use the local bank payment method, "PayLah!"
I genuinely laughed at that name! Sounds very Singaporean!
@somik said:
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
Yeah, it's the same in China. Almost everyone accepts Wechat Pay and maybe half of retailers also accept Alipay.
My point is that as a foreigner, it's next to impossible to open a local bank account without a Z visa, and as such getting money into your Wechat Wallet is impossible. There are some limited exceptions, e.g. I could top up my mobile phone credit using Wechat Pay and an attached foreign credit card, but in general Wechat payments come from your wallet, for which you need an attached local bank.
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
@somik said:
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
It's a different wallet. Even Wechat Pay for Hong Kong is completely separate, although as of 2019 Hong Kong residents were able to maintain both currencies. Not sure if Chinese residents can have a HKD wallet. There was also talk of being able to use either wallet for purchases and have the currency exchange happen automatically, but I imagine that got forgotten about during COVID as the border was shut for so long.
Comments
About the VPNs can i ask something?
i've been used China's VMs and i used a tool called V2rayN to bypass The Great Wall, it's super slow and high laterncy network, so i wonder
Are you using V2rayN,if Yes where you got the file from because you in china while you can't connect to outside the internet
What VPN you are using if you don't use V2rayN
Google is blocked in China, is OpenAI(ChatGPT) blocked too
is Bypass the firewall illegal?
i've been used China's VMs and i used a tool called V2rayN to bypass The Great Wall, it's super slow and high laterncy network, so i wonder
Are you using V2rayN,if Yes where you got the file from because you in china while you can't connect to outside the internet
What VPN you are using if you don't use V2rayN
Google is blocked in China, is OpenAI(ChatGPT) blocked too
is Bypass the firewall illegal?
Thanks for asking these questions, @dinopotato! I also wonder about these questions. I wonder about the effectiveness of the firewall because it seems that many, many people bypass it. Please let me add my additional question, "Is the Great Firewall effective?"
@FrankZ If you are not too busy, maybe @dinopotato's question and my reply with an additional question plus additional replies should be split into a new Great Firewall thread? Thanks either way!
Here is my understanding on the situation. I have never lived for an extended period in China so take it with some salt.
Bypassing the GFW is illegal without a permit. A permit is only given to large international firms (or people with special connections) with a hefty fee. They usually get whitelisted in the edge router and can use the Internet like everybody else.
That leaves the average Xiaoming.
Ever since the GFW is setup, there has been a technological cat and mouse game between the GFW and the average Xiaoming.
Eventually the government gave up since they are not successful in reverse engineering modern protocols like shadowsocks, v2ray, and wireguard. They now use organizational tactics like fining people using "accelerators" and jailing people who hosts websites teaching others how to bypass the GFW. The latest tactic though, is peer pressuring everyone to install an anti-phishing app which not only flags potentially phishing apps but also apps related to cryptocurrency, VPN and other apps conducting activities illegal in China.
But still, people who desire to access the "outer" Internet find ways to do so.
DM us for private tracker invite.
Foreigners don't have to worry about this.
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Bypassing ANY country firewall is illegal and depending on the laws, you may face a fine or jail time.
Does that mean you should stop? Yes, you should not break the law of the country you are residing in. If you do not like the law, gather money and move to a different country. That's the only legal way.
As a foreigner, if you go to china, you do have to worry about it though...
It is true. When one goes to a country, one must respect that law and culture. The Great Firewall is created by the legislation of China, it is part of China, and it must be respected by the citizens and visitors of China. If one bypasses it, then this is a breach of law.
Even though a person coming from a liberal country with democracy and with freedom of speech, may not care about The Great Firewall, the law must be respected.
Even though a person living in China wants the freedom of liberal democracy, the law must be obeyed. As always in history when populations were strangled, the people have the right to unite, rise up, and start a civil war or revolution which will change the regime into something else, with new laws and new leaders (which might not become greedy and repeat history again and again).
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Ya, no, that's not happening.
In Singapore, it is illegal to even hold a protest or demonstration.
As for US, the last time they rose up and tried starting a civil war was when Trump lost the votes and his supporters attacked the white house...
In China, lets just say you may disappear if you try any of that...
You are right. But I honestly wish to avoid being pessimistic. If we combine what you say with electricity going extremely expensive, with politics of manipulation through money, and with investments in artificial intelligence, then we are all doomed to become slaves of elite families and corporations.
Even though nowadays populations worldwide seem to be treated like sheep and cattle to be milked and used, I merely wish to keep a glimpse of hope that populations can still overthrow regimes as it was in our human history.
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Erm... we already are. I mean you are living in a country (any) ruled by a group of people who needs money to run the country and keep order. The money comes from tax, which is only generated when money transfers hands. The largest tax payers are the big corporations (not their CEO or owners, but the business itself). Large business generates money that runs your country. They have huge sway over what goes on in the country. Since you are following the rules of the country, you are already following laws that benefit those money makers.
Not anymore. Previously they lacked information and the means to monitor people's behavior. Technology has come up to where people willingly share their personal details on social media for "popularity" and thereby giving access to all sorts of companies insights into what they are up to. If you even start planning a civil war, well, lets just way a aluminum foil hat will not help.
If you want to live peacefully, just follow the rules. The are carefully maintained to not be harsh enough to cause general unrest. As long as only minority group are unhappy, it does not matter.
If the general populaces starts to get unhappy, government will hold events and raise base salary to combat the unrest. So it is a carefully maintained balance that will be maintained a long time to come.
can we move on to technical discussion please? these political discussion yadda yadda can have their own offtopic thread
Fuck this 24/7 internet spew of trivia and celebrity bullshit.
I believe Chinese government has found a way to detect Shadowsocks.
I also heard from my friend that if an IP has a lot of traffic or long lasting connections, then this IP will be blocked by the firewall.
They can detect but they cannot decrypt and do deep packet inspection like they did with IPSEC type VPN.
They can only block the IP.
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
DM us for private tracker invite.
github is accessible,or download client from vpn provider's(a.k.a airport) website
shadowsocks(r),trojan,wireguard
yes,api endpoints included
openapi blocked china and GFW blocked openai API
it depends, currently there are no legal about bypassing firewalls,but you can get caught as "breaking computer",also some place just simply arrest and warn you for fines or reach metrics
basically most police call you because you send something political on social media, but most of Chinese bypassing GFW just for porns,lmao
ah,reply to wrong person i think
@dinopotato here you are
What country do you live in? That's the way it's supposed to work but rarely the way it does work from my experience.
imagine go to china can't use google translate lol
Hi,i just wonder about why china don't give freedom about the internet, i just wondering
True. But you see, people try to value privacy precisely due to political aspects. Many people start focusing on VPNs simply because they don't trust the governments and corporations anymore. In an utopia world where people would be happy and minding their own lives in peace, love and harmony for one another, there would be no need for VPNs and anonymity and protests.
But unfortunately governments want to impose laws and monitor their populations like slaves, while people can't trust their governments precisely because politicians monitor their population, cling to power, and shake hands with rich entities. This is why VPNs were created; and this is why VPNs became illegal in some countries.
With this in mind now comes the technical aspect, because some people want a VPN which can simply hide their IP for downloading something; while others simply want to hide from government controls and access web freely, like others do, just to stay informed (away from propaganda and agendas). It's a battle, or better yet a struggle for people to have some sense of freedom. There is a perverse paradox here: the more people want anonymity, the more governments and corporations start thinking their slaves are up to no good; and the more governments create laws to hinder freedom, the more consumers tend to desire anonymity. And we just started to scratch the surface in this paradox, as more protocols for VPNs will likely be developed.
The end is nigh, one might say. But honestly I hope humanity will become more beautiful and more good to realise that greed and power are not the way to explore an infinite universe (since infinite greed could drive humanity crazy). I do not want to derail this thread which many people see as a solution for their firewall. But my opinion is that the problem is not with The Great Firewall; the problem is with the minds who thought of creating it and maintaining it in the first place - minds which are evil for power, greed, control, mistrust and lack of love - this is the underlying problem which really needs to be addressed, and nobody knows how this can be done diplomatically, without triggering security laws.
Meanwhile, back on topic, I recommend: Shadowsocks, Wireguard (some public VPN providers have wireguard but their servers are marked by GFW), or Tor Project with a hidden bridge.
From providers perspective, I recommend the cheapest VPS for VPN, because once the GFW blocks the IP, one can simply cancel the machine and deploy another server with a different IP.
I don't have a gif, but I do have a nice short film somewhat related. Enjoy.
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Singapore. The whole country is just one big corporation.
I did not think about that... F**K! I'll need to get a offline copy of everything (google translate, google maps, etc.) before I go...
better ask CCP
Or George Orwell.
maybe just get a proper VPN
some rumor said government give some VPN provider whitelist since foreign business needs vpn
btw, guys, foreign vistors use VPN isn't illegal, police only check local residents lol
That's just being twofaced... Having differing rules for 2 groups of people [x_x]
@somik build a VPN server at SG for yourself. You can view all the websites.
I actually have private VPN servers both in SG and in US. I'm just worried that I wont be able to access my servers if I go china...
Sure, Don't worried.
GFW is known to not interfere with international roaming of foreign carriers (Google Fi, for instance. Google for evidences from actual users). Whether unencrypted data on such links are monitored is anyone's guess. Use VPN etc. if this troubles you.
If you choose to use local WIFI/ethernet in mainland, you are going through GFW. You have to use VPN etc. to get 'full' internet access. Well known and commonly used VPN providers may or may not work (stably). Personal VPN-like service may or may not work (stably). GFW is a huge blackbox.
Big (international) companies are a different story. Commercial service with less restrictions can be openly bought from providers for 'legal' uses.
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There're only a few young people in China who's able to bypass GFW. Although it looks a large group of crossers, it is because people who focuses on these technologies / VPN / VPS gather in specific communities.
Personal usage of V2ray / Shadowsocks won't be punished by Chinese government, although bypass GFW is illegal indeed. They only arrest those who developed software like V2ray / Shadowsocks, who taught others how to use VPN or who provide public VPN to others.
Ofcourse, we dont expect regular non-tech people to be using VPNs! I mean I know some who cant even use a smartphone properly and only can use facebook and whatsapp.
That's cause it doesn't make sense to go after everyone bypassing in monetary terms. Better to go after the high profile ones like influencers as a "warning" to the rest of the people.
Thats cause they are enabling others to bypass the law. So it makes sense to go after them. And since they are also making money off it, the government can impose fines and recover some of the money spent finding the "criminal".
If the has has a lot of traffic, it'll be blocked; regardless what protocol you are using; e.g., shadowsocks, wg, etc. Thus, wg and shadowsocks are not perfect.
Today there is no free internet. In US you can't upload anything that violates DMCA. US also seized Iran's domains like presstv.com . In Korea I believe they've banned most pr0n websites. Most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons.
↑↑↑
Doublethink + Whataboutism Fallacy + Slippery Slope Fallacy
Ontario Dildo Inspector
Only if you run an "airport", or use it to download constantly.
Nothing is perfect, and wg and ss has severely affected the GFW's ability to do packet inspection, that's why they switched to other tactics.
DM us for private tracker invite.
You know there's a difference between example and Slippery Slope Fallacy, right?
I made the claim "there is no free internet" first, and then I gave two examples. It's not the case that I use two examples to conclude "there is no free internet." I can give you more examples; for instance, no country in this world allows child p0rn.
Also this is not Whataboutism. Again they are examples to support the claim "there is no free internet." I didn't use internet censorship in the US or other countries to support the claim that internet censorship in China is right. In fact I think China's censorship is too strict.
I have stated clearly "most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons." This is my answer to the question "why china don't give freedom about the internet"
Makes sense. If a regular IP hosting normal content suddenly starts getting a lot of traffic, there is definitely something shady going on...
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
I agree about all country can be ban/not allow killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc., but why china can ban Google and Social media?, also in some router can be have Filtering Adult Content for Kids about these.
I don't agree about china block Google, Google also have safe search setting, it's can be turn on
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Because google doesn't follow china Gov censor recommend. It only follows the US Gov.
and US will sanction at any time.
So China build internet for their needs.
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
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I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
If you want your data to be shared by the governments AND the top companies AND/OR anyone who has money to pay, follow US.
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it. Afterall, ignorance is bliss...
Wechat is also used for payments. Baidu for video sharing. And you can ofcourse hire translators/guides at a very cheap price when you go over.
Google translate was available in China and Google closed it last year (2022) "due to low usage." Check this: https://www.pcmag.com/news/google-translate-discontinued-in-china
Note Google translate might not be the most accurate English/Chinese translator.
Google search was blocked since 2014 because Google couldn't accommodate requests from Chinese government. I've heard part of the reason is that Google needs a court order to remove content; but in China they get a lot of requests from the communist party, not from the court. China has a different political system and some rules won't apply there...
social media platforms like twitter and facebook were blocked for inciting the 2009 Urumuqi riots in Xinjiang (which resulting in about 200 deaths and over one thousand injuries) and have not been unblocked.
These tech giants tried to re-enter China with censored version of their products, but they never made it. I guess it's because Chinese government wants to promote Chinese substitutes like Weibo and Baidu
Better way for go to china without google traslate is learn chiniese
You are partially right. The censoring is done to a certain degree; the disregard for data privacy is only on top levels. We know it, we adapted to it, and it is not that bad once you realise it. There are limitations to what government can do: look at protest in France as an example.
Yet China is also ruled by corporations who have money to pay. They get the best internet, and uncensored.
True, but partially; because government of China is also ruled behind it by the rich.
Yeah, right. They are happy trying to access porn like others do. And while they bypass the firewall, they totally care for their privacy.
Let's not be hypocritical. There is no perfect system. After thousands of years of evolution we still have not managed to eliminate greed through any political system. If you consider yourself a perfect leader to rule the world, then I am ignorant indeed.
"In times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers." - history taught us this much.
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Yes, and similarly, the china's populas accepted and adapted to their "normal" as well.
And again, those corporations ARE controlled by the government. Trencent, Wechat, Baidu, you name it, government has their hands in it.
I'll quote myself here as a response:
If I didn't know of the outside world, only living in my small bubble, i would be happier. I wont compare what I have vs what others have. I wont care which government is doing what for it's people, I wont care which two countries are at war. So I would be happier. Ofcourse it would be different for others, but that's just what I feel about it.
Yet, our rulers are always first to build barriers. Trumps "mexican wall", china's "firewall", etc. The issue is that we will always vote for the foolish, never the wise...
This is generally hard for foreigners now, unless you have a Z (work) visa.
To fund wechat wallet, you either need to link it to a Chinese bank account or receive a red packet. However, about 4 years ago, they massively tightened this up and now you can only receive a red packet if you also have a linked bank account. Opening a bank account is generally difficult for foreigners now, typically you need a rental contract, a form from the local PSB to show you're registered as living there, and a suitable visa. I tried quite a few different banks in 2018, and didn't succeed in opening an account at all. Prior to 2017 it was pretty easy to open a bank account even with an L (tourist) visa.
Alipay is supposed to be the best alternative for foreigners as it apparently allows linking a foreign credit card to it. I never managed to get it to work though, but I've heard from others who succeeded.
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
I also saw Alipay in SG but never used it. So dunno much about it. I generally use the local bank payment method, "PayLah!"
Really? I find it hard to imagine that corporations get uncensored internet in china. Do you mean via VPNs?
Yeah, it's the same in China. Almost everyone accepts Wechat Pay and maybe half of retailers also accept Alipay.
My point is that as a foreigner, it's next to impossible to open a local bank account without a Z visa, and as such getting money into your Wechat Wallet is impossible. There are some limited exceptions, e.g. I could top up my mobile phone credit using Wechat Pay and an attached foreign credit card, but in general Wechat payments come from your wallet, for which you need an attached local bank.
I genuinely laughed at that name! Sounds very Singaporean!
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
It's a different wallet. Even Wechat Pay for Hong Kong is completely separate, although as of 2019 Hong Kong residents were able to maintain both currencies. Not sure if Chinese residents can have a HKD wallet. There was also talk of being able to use either wallet for purchases and have the currency exchange happen automatically, but I imagine that got forgotten about during COVID as the border was shut for so long.