Debian 10 footprint

flipsflips OG
edited November 2019 in Technical

Debian used be quite small after a base install. This is a plain new VPS, think I installed debian10 from the template in Virtualizor.
Then I did an apt update && apt -fu dist-upgrade and installed tmux, sudo, vim and htop.
And it uses 1.3 GB of space.
1.1 GB for /usr (most in libs iirc)
364 packages installed.
I did run apt clean.

Wonder if there was a bit more than I expected in the default template, or if I didn't pay attention when upgrading/installing. (Some CLI utils triggers weird deps sometimes.)
Or is Debian just becoming a large base install by default?
(Almost tempted to go for Alpine, but been a Debian user for so long.)

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Comments

  • uptimeuptime OG
    edited November 2019

    Yeah, looks like about 1.3 GB after installing from ISO as well (selecting just base system and ssh server package groups during the install)

    # cat /etc/debian_version
    10.2
    # df -h .
    Filesystem               Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on  
    /dev/mapper/ed--vg-root   28G  1.3G   25G   6% /
    

    I added just a few packages via apt after installation:

    atop htop iperf mtr-tiny curl git sudo

    And there are now a total of 347 packages returned by apt list --installed

    Thanked by flips
  • I learn that convenience and size are mutually exclusive: you trade installation size for convenience.

    Tried Alpine, super small, yes, but I need things that are not compiled with musl.

    Compile yourself you say? Yeah that means lots of devtools and compile time and ain't nobody got time for that?

    So I returned to Debian.

    And that's because I haven't owned a true LES yet.

    Thanked by flips

    The all seeing eye sees everything...

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith AdministratorHosting Provider
    edited November 2019

    Runs super slim on VZ7

    les-deb-10:/# df -h
    Filesystem         Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    /dev/ploop63212p1  1.9G  393M  1.4G  22% /
    none                64M     0   64M   0% /sys/fs/cgroup
    none                64M     0   64M   0% /dev
    tmpfs               64M     0   64M   0% /dev/shm
    tmpfs               64M  912K   64M   2% /run
    tmpfs              5.0M     0  5.0M   0% /run/lock
    none                64M     0   64M   0% /run/shm
    
    @les-deb-10:/# free -m
                  total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
    Mem:            128          11          82           0          33         115
    Swap:             0           0           0
    
    top - 23:10:58 up 0 min,  0 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
    Tasks:  11 total,   1 running,  10 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
    %Cpu(s):  0.0 us,  6.2 sy,  0.0 ni, 93.8 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
    MiB Mem :    128.0 total,     81.9 free,     12.1 used,     34.0 buff/cache
    MiB Swap:      0.0 total,      0.0 free,      0.0 used.    115.0 avail Mem
    
      PID USER      PR  NI    VIRT    RES    SHR S  %CPU  %MEM     TIME+ COMMAND
        1 root      20   0   21484   6524   4716 S   0.0   5.0   0:00.28 systemd
        2 root      20   0       0      0      0 S   0.0   0.0   0:00.00 kthreadd/8375
        3 root      20   0       0      0      0 S   0.0   0.0   0:00.00 khelper
       67 root      20   0   20068   4248   3308 S   0.0   3.2   0:00.06 systemd-journal
      100 root      20   0   19536   2840   2068 S   0.0   2.2   0:00.02 systemd-udevd
      110 systemd+  20   0   20928   4396   3448 S   0.0   3.4   0:00.03 systemd-network
      226 root      20   0    4160    876    752 S   0.0   0.7   0:00.00 agetty
      227 root      20   0    2408    732    620 S   0.0   0.6   0:00.00 agetty
      228 root      20   0   15840   3716   2872 S   0.0   2.8   0:00.00 sshd
      231 root      20   0    3988   2088   1596 S   0.0   1.6   0:00.00 bash
      235 root      20   0    7984   1740   1256 R   0.0   1.3   0:00.00 top
    
    # apt list --installed | grep installed | wc -l
    175
    

    @les-deb-10:/# cat /etc/debian_version
    10.2
    @les-deb-10:/# uname -a
    Linux les-deb-10 4.19.0 #1 SMP Thu Jun 27 15:10:55 MSK 2019 x86_64 GNU/Linux

    And this is why OpenVZ will always have a place :)

    Thanked by flips uptime

    Inception Hosting - we surveyed 100 people and asked them what a fat husband may hide from his wife in his belly button, the 3rd most popular answer was: "Jewelry"

  • flipsflips OG
    edited November 2019

    @uptime said:
    (…) I added just a few packages via apt after installation:
    atop htop iperf mtr-tiny curl git sudo

    And there are now a total of 347 packages returned by apt list --installed

    Good to hear that I didn't miss/overlook something vital.
    So, mtr-tiny is a separate package. :+1: I think mtr is one of those which made me wonder, when it pulled in lots of seemingly irrelevant packages. (In a previous install.)

    @terrorgen said:
    I learn that convenience and size are mutually exclusive: you trade installation size for convenience.

    Tried Alpine, super small, yes, but I need things that are not compiled with musl.

    Compile yourself you say? Yeah that means lots of devtools and compile time and ain't nobody got time for that?

    So I returned to Debian.

    Still, Debian has increased quite a bit since Stretch and whatever 8.x was called?

    I do try to stick with distro maintained packages, yes, self compiling requires more maintenance effort as well.

    That's the main thing with Debian for me: Unattended upgrades, been running that for years, only need to pay attention to important kernel upgrades. :smile:

    Thanked by uptime
  • @AnthonySmith said:
    Runs super slim on VZ7

       (…)
        /dev/ploop63212p1  1.9G  393M  1.4G  22% /
        (…)
        # apt list --installed | grep installed | wc -l
        175
    (…)
    

    And this is why OpenVZ will always have a place :)

    Wow. That's better. :+1: :smile:
    (Less packages installed. I assume you just installed ssh-server package, not the tasksel option from the installer.)

    I've been meaning to ask this, as I never tried OpenVZ.

    I heard some complain about it, something about I/O performance with software RAID being poor.

    From old LES forum it seems OpenVPN is a common use (which needs TUN/TAP?).

    And if I have understood correctly OpenVZ is more of a container than a full VM, sharing the hosts kernel. (Not sure how it handles newer installed kernels inside the VM, when it's sharing with host?)

    Any particular benefits of OpenVZ vs LXC/LXD?
    (I understood some are concerned with privacy, how well protected the LXC containers actually are.)

    Maybe I should get me an OpenVZ instance just for fun. :sunglasses:

  • LXC is fine for your own private use, where you control the containers as well as the host node. It is insufficient for VPS providers, where the containers are untrusted.

    Software RAID can be just fine, but with VPSes the storage is managed by the provider, whether it's hardware RAID or software is transparent to you as a user.

    OpenVZ shares the host kernel, yes. VZ7 finally updates the host kernel to a reasonably recent one.

    Pick up a NAT VZ7 from Anthony! https://clients.inceptionhosting.com/cart.php?gid=13

    Thanked by poisson
  • have been using Alpine for a while, it works well, compiling things can some times be an issue, but i dont need anything to compile since I am running most of my stuff inside Docker

    Thanked by uptime
  • vyasvyas OG
    edited November 2019

    interesting...
    debian10 on ovz7 is indeed leaner.
    $ df -h
    Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    /dev/ploop10565p1 2.9G 452M 2.3G 17% /

    Thanked by uptime vimalware

    < signed off >

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith AdministratorHosting Provider

    flips said: I heard some complain about it, something about I/O performance with software RAID being poor.

    Ignore that, it is nonsense.

    flips said: From old LES forum it seems OpenVPN is a common use (which needs TUN/TAP?).

    Indeed, you can enable it by clicking a button in the control panel.

    flips said: if I have understood correctly OpenVZ is more of a container than a full VM, sharing the hosts kernel. (Not sure how it handles newer installed kernels inside the VM, when it's sharing with host?)

    Yes, openvz is a container based system, it handles nered kernels by backporting the host node kernel to support it and then the host node simply lies to the container and says .. you are 4.9.x dont worry about it :) and it works because the functions exit in the host node kernel anyway.

    flips said: Any particular benefits of OpenVZ vs LXC/LXD

    LXD/C is intended for self controlled single platforms or known multi users, not multi tenant/ unknown neighbors hosting environments, as such OpenVZ is the better choice, in terms of performance they are essentially identical.

    Thanked by flips

    Inception Hosting - we surveyed 100 people and asked them what a fat husband may hide from his wife in his belly button, the 3rd most popular answer was: "Jewelry"

  • AnthonySmith said: flips said: I heard some complain about it, something about I/O performance with software RAID being poor.

    Ignore that, it is nonsense.

    :smile: Well, I know he had real issues, but it might not be due to the OpenVZ architecture, I guess. :sunglasses:

  • flips said: I heard some complain about it, something about I/O performance with software RAID being poor.

    You can get crappy performance using expensive hardware RAID cards too, so they aren't a silver bullet for IO performance.

    Back in the day when we were lucky to get 2 single core procs, sure get a RAID card with a mem cache and battery backup to offload write caching and parity calculations. Now, it doesn't really matter.

    Thanked by flips
  • flips said: Wonder if there was a bit more than I expected in the default template

    When installing Debian, installing "standard" task from tasksel is not necessary. As of Debian 10 there are 72 base packages, and "standard" task has 38 more (perl, python, wget). That's not including their own dependencies. I wonder if these images have "standard" enabled.

    Also by default apt-get installs "recommended" packages alongside dependency packages. Debian becomes noticeably smaller when you disable this feature, though software often breaks.

    Thanked by uptime poisson flips
  • @intelpentium said:

    flips said: Wonder if there was a bit more than I expected in the default template

    When installing Debian, installing "standard" task from tasksel is not necessary. As of Debian 10 there are 72 base packages, and "standard" task has 38 more (perl, python, wget). That's not including their own dependencies. I wonder if these images have "standard" enabled.

    In this case the VPS template wasn't made by me, but I guess I could check if standard is installed. And maybe use deborphan or something to clean up stuff.

    Also by default apt-get installs "recommended" packages alongside dependency packages. Debian becomes noticeably smaller when you disable this feature, though software often breaks.

    Some years ago I think apt-get did not install those, while dselect and/or synaptic did.
    I guess I should read a bit on man apt.conf :smile:

  • Debian 10 has a lower carbon footprint than Toyota Prius.

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